Robert Mutrie Eyewitness Account

• Place: Manchester
• Role: Officer
• Occupation: Local Merchant,Special Constable

Account

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Name: Robert Mutrie

Occupation: Local Merchant and Special Constable

Home: Manchester

Date: 6 October 1819

Source: Lees Inquest 411  440

Summary: Comprehensive account and robust crossexamination describing the military movements of the Yeomanry towards the hustings; banners, flags, marching nature, makeup and atmosphere within the processions approaching St.Peter’sfield. Witnessed constables beating people with truncheons but reluctant to acknowledge witnessing the wounding of people in the fleeing crowd by the mounted Yeomanry.

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Mr. ROBERT MUTRIE called in, sworn, and examined by the CORONER.

Q. Where do you live, Sir?
A. In Union-street, Manchester.
Q. What are you?
A. I am a merchant.
Q. I take it for granted that you did not know John Lees?
A. No.
Mr. Ashworth—Now, Sir, here is something in this paper to which I will call your attention. It is stated here, Sir, that I handed a letter to you the first day I appeared here, and that I afterwards admitted that I appeared for the Magistrates. It is stated, “the learned gentleman afterwards admitted that he ap¬peared for the Magistrates." This is another falsehood.
The Coroner—You must expect no truth from the Times, I am sure I don't.
Mr. Ashworth—No, indeed, Sir; from what I see, it is im¬possible for truth to come from such a polluted source.

The examination of the WITNESS resumed by the CORONER.
Q. Did you know John Lees?

A. No.
Q. Did you attend the meeting at Manchester on the 16th of August?
A. Yes.
Q. What people did you see assembled there?
Mr. Ashworth—Where were you first?
A. I was first at St. James's-square, and afterwards at the Albion.

The examination of the WITNESS resumed by the CORONER.

Q. At what time were you at the Albion?
A. Between eleven and twelve.
Q. What did you observe whilst you wore there?
A. I observed a great many people come in the road from Stockport,
Q. How many?
A. To the best of my conception, between 4000 and 5000, or from 5000 to 6000, marching like soldiers apparently.
Q. Were they in line?
A. They were in rank and file—in order, just the same as sol¬diers, and many of them with very large sticks.
Q. Were they walking-sticks?
A. The expression I made use of at the time was, that they were very inconvenient for walking with, for they were more calcu¬lated for some offensive purpose.
Q. Did they walk with them, or use them as walking sticks?
A. Some had them over their shoulders, and some were walking with them.
Q. Did you observe any thing else in particular?
A. I saw a coach and some persons on the outside of it.
Q. In what part did you see the coach?
A. It passed the Albion.
Q. Was it with this body?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it in the beginning or the end of the body?
A. Some preceded it, and there were some after it, and some persons outside, one of whom I was told was Moorhouse, and he had a white hat, which he took off and shouted, and then the crowd shouted also.
Q. Frequently, or only once?
A. I only observed once then; but they shouted frequently as they went to the field.
Q. Well, go on?
A. From the appearance of the people that day I felt alarm.
Q. You felt alarm, did you?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, what more?
A. Then I went over to the Infirmary gardens to some gentle¬men that I knew.
Q. What further did you see?
A. I then saw a still larger cavalcade of people come.
Q. How long was that after the other body passed?
A. About half an hour after.
Q. From what quarter did they come?
A. They came along Oldham-street.
Q. How did they, come?—in what manner did they come?
A. Much in the same manner as the others, with flags and Caps of Liberty. I saw some white marks in their hats, and I went out of the gardens and went near them, and walked with them to see what it was, and it appeared to be a paper denoting the different persons commanding a party, as I thought.
Q. Were these papers the same colour?
A. No; they were not all the same colour; some were white and some were not.
Q. Was there any thing else that you observed?
A. Then I went down as far as York-street. I wanted to see one of the officers of the Yeomanry.
Q. What! did you not go to the ground with them?
A. No.
Q. What next did you do?
A. I then went down York-street and King-street to St. James's square, and I found all the constables had left, and from that I went to the ground.
Q. What time did you get to the ground?
A. Between twelve and one o'clock, I suppose,
Q. What part of the ground did you take your station on?
A. I went to Mount-street.
Q. What part did you take your station on?
A. I walked about, and was in several parts of the field, from the hustings to the houses in Mount-street.
Q. What did you observe?
A. I observed the people still coming there.
Q. Did you observe any other large bodies come in?
A. I think it was a continuation of the body I saw coming from Oldham-street. I stopped a little time on the ground, and then I went to a friend's house near the Quakers' Chapel, but I do not know the name of the street, but I saw Mr. Hunt.
Q. You only saw him come on the ground?
A. I was in a window near the chapel, but I could not see the hustings from that.
Q. Then you saw him come to the ground?
A. Yes.
Q. What street were you in?
A. (Referring to the plan produced by Mr. Harmer)—It was part of Dickenson-street. He was bowing and waving his hat, and saluting the people, and the people were returning it in shouting.
Q. Were there any people with him?
A. Yes, there was a great crowd of people with him.
Q. Well, after that, what took place?
A. After that I left the house and came on the ground again.
Q. What part of the ground did you come to?
A. It was by the side of Mount-street, on a little elevated piece of ground, where I thought I should be able to see the hustings better. There was some ground thrown up there, and it was past Mr. Buxton's house.
Q. What distance were you, do you suppose, from Mr. Buxton's house?
A. Thirty or forty yards, I should suppose.
Q. What did you observe from there?
A. I saw Mr. Hunt come on the hustings, and then I saw him address the people for a short time; perhaps for a quarter of an hour. I then observed the Yeomanry make their appearance from the other end of Mount-street.
Q. What Yeomanry?
A. The Manchester Yeomanry.
Q. Coming round by the cottage-wall, do you mean?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, what more did you see?
A. They halted upon the ground that I then stood upon, and went afterwards to the hustings.
Q. How near did you go to the hustings?
A. I suppose the nearest was ten yards that I was from the hus¬tings. I cannot be positive, but I suppose I went to within ten or fifteen yards of the hustings.
Q. Well, what more?
A. The Yeomanry halted for a few minutes, and then came to¬wards the hustings. The people had previously shouted, waving their hats and sticks in the air when the Yeomanry came on the ground. The Yeomanry, previous to moving towards the hustings, waved their swords and, cheered; then they came on towards the hustings. I ran with the crowd for a little way before the horses.
Q. Which way?
A. Towards the hustings. I think the left flank of the Yeomanry then passed me, or I passed them rather. They had not passed me long before I observed either stones or bricks, or brick¬bats, I don't know which, thrown.
Q. Thrown where?
A. Thrown among the Yeomanry, and towards the place where I was standing. The confusion immediately became very general; and I can scarcely answer to any particulars that afterwards took place.
Q. On what part of the ground, or at what distance from the hustings, were any of the soldiers when these stones and brick-bats were thrown?
A. Some part of the Yeomanry might have been up to the hus¬tings and close under them; but the whole body was not.
Q. And how far from the hustings was it that the stones were thrown?
A. It might be ten or fifteen yards, I think; that is the distance I was from the hustings, and they fell within three or four yards of me.
Q. How do you mean there was confusion?
A. Why the people began to disperse, and the other soldiers came on the ground.
Q. What other soldiers came on the ground?
A. I understood the Cheshire Yeomanry and the 15th Hussars.
Q. Did you see them?
A. I saw the Cheshire Yeomanry come first.
Q. What did they do?
A. They went past me several of them.
Q. Towards the hustings?
A. Yes; and some of them down towards the chapel.
Q. But what became of you as soon as the stones were thrown?
A. In the midst of the confusion, I saw Mr. Hunt in the pos¬session of Mr. Nadin.
Q. But what became of you?
A. I walked backwards and forwards several times, until I joined the constables that were going to Mr. Buxton's house with Mr. Hunt, and I was there for a few minutes.
Q. Did you see Mr Hunt taken off the stage?
A. Yes. I saw him descend from the stage. At least he disap¬peared.
Q. In what manner did the Yeomanry proceed from the place where they had first taken their station, to the hustings, as to pace—in form or line— how did they proceed?
A. They came in, in a body.
Q. But after they had taken their station, how did they mover from it, and proceed into the crowd?
A. The people were shouting and making a noise, and the con¬stables got upon the stage, I believe.
Q. But were the constables there before?
A. No.
Q. How then did the Yeomanry move?
A. They went in towards the hustings.
Q. But in what manner?
A. At a canter, I conceive.
Q. What happened in their progress up to the hustings?
A. I saw nothing happen, only the confusion they might occasi¬on; and when they got part of them through, there seemed to me to be some opposition between them and the hustings, or some temporary cause to stop them, as it were.
Q. What distance was that from the hustings?
A. It was between me and the hustings, and it might be less than ten yards from the hustings.
Q. What did they do?
A. They waved their swords.
Q. And what caused that opposition or stoppage?
A. I considered it was occasioned by the people opposing their progress,
Q. Did any person precede them?
A. The constables were before them.
Q. All the way from Mr. Buxton's house?
A. I was before them myself, until they got within that distance of the hustings.
Q. And did you run?
A. Yes; and they went at a canter.
Q. Did they go in line, or how?
A. They appeared to be rather confused, and were not formed exactly regular.
Q. Did no one person on horseback precede them—no trum¬peter?
A. Mr. Birley, and a trumpeter; I think I saw them—the trum¬peter I am not positive to.
Q. Was there any. person ten or fifteen yards before them?
A. I should think they were only five or six yards before them.
Q. You are not certain whether you saw the trumpeter before them or not?
A. No.
Q. And did the constables precede him or go before him?
A. Yes; you will Understand me, I was before them.
Q. And were the constables with you?
A. There was a great many constables round me.
Q. Did you see any blows struck or damage done to the people?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Not betwixt the Yeomanry's first setting off, and the time they passed you?
A. No, Sir; I did not. I did not see a blow struck at that time.
Q. Was any blow struck with the sword of any Yeomanry, before they arrived at the hustings?
A. I did not see any.
Q. Did you, before the Yeomanry proceeded up to the hustings, hear any Riot Act read, or any admonition, or any warning given to the crowd, by any one?
A. I did not.
Q. Then I think you say you saw them take Mr. Hunt down - from the hustings?
A. Yes; to Mr. Buxton's house.
Q. What did you do after that?
A. I followed them to Mr. Buxton's house. A pause was made by Mr. Hunt on the steps of Mr. Buxton's house. As it appeared to me, he wished to address the people coming round him, and there was an attempt to push or drive him into the house, and he made resistance.
Q. What became of you after that?
A. Then he went in, and I stood opposite the door.
Q. What became of you after that?
A. I went in various parts after that, for some time—different parts of the field; I cannot exactly say where I was. I saw Mr. Hunt brought out again, and I went part of the way with him down to the New Bailey.
Q. How soon was that? How long was it first?
A. I can't say; perhaps half an hour, I saw stones thrown in different parts, and sticks flying about, and I heard the report of pistols.
Q. When was that? When they were taking him to the New Bailey?
A. No. When they were bringing him from the hustings was the first time I heard the report of pistols.
Q. Where did you hear any report of a pistol? In what quarter was it?
A. I conceived it came from the quarter of Deansgate.
Q. Was it oftener than once?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it at different times, or many at one time, or did you hear only one?
A. Perhaps there might be half a dozen; my conception was that the people were firing.
Mr. Harmer—You must not give us that, Sir, as evidence. We are not to have your conceptions.
Mr. Ashworth—Was that your idea?
A. Yes, it was.

The examination of the WITNESS resumed by the CORONER.
Q. Were there any soldiers down there at that time?
A. I should think the soldiers had not got so far as that.
Q. Were the pistols fired on the ground?
A. They appeared to be fired in the lower end of Peter-street; I should think towards Deansgate.
Q. Where were you at the time?
A. I was between* Mount-street and the hustings.
Q. When they were taking Mr. Hunt off the ground, you followed him?
A. Only a few yards.
Q. You did not come off the ground into Deansgate?
A. No.
Q. Beside these pistols firing, did you see or hear any thing else?
A. Then I saw the military galloping about different parts of the field.
Q. After the reports?
A. Yes.
Q. What military were they?
A. The 15th Hussars, a great many of them, and of the Yeomanry.
Q. Do you mean the Manchester Yeomanry?
A. Both the Manchester Yeomanry and the Cheshire Yeomanry.
Q. What were they doing?
A. The people were running away.
Q. This was before Mr. Hunt was taken off the ground?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it before they had taken Mr. Hunt to Mr. Buxton's house?
A. No. It was before they took him out of the house.
Q. Then it was whilst he was in the house?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did they continue to do this? How long was it before the ground was cleared? Was it before Mr. Hunt was taken away?
A. It was very few minutes, I think, before the people were gone. I saw some people in the out-skirts.
Q. That was before Mr. Hunt was taken away?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you observe, Sir, the people passing down from the field in disorder and confusion?
A. Merely what I said. The people were running, and the soldiers were following them. I can't speak to any particular part after Mr. Hunt was taken from the hustings; as, after I heard the pistol fired, I felt alarmed for my own personal safety.
Q. Did you see any wound given on the field?
A. No. I saw none given at all; but I saw the people wounded afterwards.
Q. Where did you see them wounded afterwards?
A. I saw one woman lying in Mr. Cooper's yard.
Q. Where is that?
A. At the end of Mount-street. There were several others there. There was a gentleman there that was hurt, but I don't know his name.
Q. Did you see any constables or beadles injure any persons with their truncheons or staves?
A. I saw them striking blows.
Q. Where?
A. In different parts of the field.
Q. What part?
A. I can't speak to any particular part of the field. They kept running about.
Q. For what purpose did they appear to you to be striking them? What was their object in striking them?
A. To disperse the people, I think.
Q. Did you see them beating any persons under the hustings?
A. I saw the constables striking the persons on the hustings, and laying hold of them.
The WITNESS examined by Mr. ASHWORTH.
Q. Then on the morning of the 16th, you first stood at the Albion Hotel?
A. Yes.
Q. That was about eleven o'clock?
A. It was between eleven and twelve.
Q. And you saw a body coming, as if from Stockport?
A. I did.
Q. What was the step in which they came? Will you describe it? Was it the ordinary step of people coming into the town about business?
A. They were not walking rapidly. They were keeping step like soldiers, and marching in file.
Q. Did you ever see such a number of persons coming toge¬ther to market, or going to church, or going to fairs?
A. No, I don't think I ever did. I have seen a greater crowd collected together in a mass than I did at that time, but I never saw them come in that manner.
Q. Did you hear any word of command given as they passed the Albion Hotel from any quarter?
A. No, only Moorhouse took off his hat and called out “shout," and I believe they all shouted.
Q. Did any body head them?
A. There was a coach, but some preceded the coach. But the coach seemed to be at the head of one division, or one party.
Q. Did they appear to you to be in divisions, or how?
A. Yes, in divisions. A party of women was one.
Q. Did they appear to you to be in divisions, or bow?
A. I thought from seeing the flags in different parts of the line that they must be in divisions. That is all I can judge of their being in divisions.
Q. Could any body of persons, of the number that constituted that body, come with the same regularity of step that they did, without some previous preparation?
A. They could not.
Mr. HARMER—That is a mere matter of opinion.
The CORONER—Certainly it is a mere matter of opinion.
The examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. ASHWORTH.
Q. Did you ever see any body of persons come into Manchester or any where else, with the same regularity that these people came?
A. Never, unless it was soldiers.
Q. Did any body about you at that time say any thing about that body, or make any observations?
Mr. HARMER—I object to that.
Mr. ASHWORTH—It is part of the res gesta.
The CORONER—I think it is evidence.
Mr. HARMER—Then it is to be allowed?
The CORONER—I think so.
Mr. HARMER—The learned Counsel has objected more than once, successfully, to the observations of witnesses.
Mr. ASHWORTH—I never will object, Sir, to any thing that oc¬curs, accompanying a fact. No naked declaration is evidence, but a declaration accompanying a fact, is surely evidence.
The examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. ASHWORTH.
Q. From the way in which they marched, and their appear¬ances, and their countenances, did you make any remark?
A. I said I was sorry for them, for I was afraid blood would be spilt before night.
Q. Were there any other expressions made use of, as they passed the Albion, by any person or persons indicating alarm?
A. I wished to go and speak to one of the officers, to get a young lad who was among the Yeomanry away, for I thought he would do no good.

[Here some persons laughed at the lower end of the room.']

The CORONER—If I have the proceedings disturbed in this way, by any indecent noise, I will certainly order that end of the room to be cleared. There are a great deal too many persons there already.
The examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. ASHWORTH.
Q. Well, Sir, what did you do with respect to this young man?
A. I went to try to get him away.
Q. Did any persons round you make use of any expressions that indicated alarm?
A. I heard no expressions in particular, but the gentlemen with me appeared of the same opinion as myself.
Q. Did they express it?
A. Yes, I think they did.
Q. Mr. Entwisle was with you?
A. Yes, and Mr. Pollard and another gentleman, an attorney, whose name I do not immediately recollect.
Q. And you gathered from them, that they were of the same opinion with yourself1?
A. Yes; so much so, that this gentleman, the attorney, whose name I cannot remember, stood still in Redcross-street, until the crowd was gone—(after some consideration)—Barratt is his name, and he said, "I will go home and protect my own property;" and he wanted me to go with him, as my property lies rather that way.
Q. What number of flags were there with this party I have you have described?
A. I can't say the number. Perhaps three or four.
Q. Did you read any inscriptions on them?
A. Yes; I think one had “LIBERTY AND DEATH “on it.
Q. What was the ground or colour of the flag on which there was that inscription?
A. I can't say I know.
Q. Was there any figure upon any of the flags; or representa¬tion of any thing?
A. There was one had the figure of Justice on it.
Q. Was there any other inscription, that you recollect, upon any other flag?
A. “No CORN LAWS," was upon one.
Q. Was there any other inscription?
A. There were others, but I cannot speak to them.
Q. Did you see any thing drawn or delineated on any of the flags?
A. I saw a figure of Justice, and I think she had scales in her hands.
Q. Yes, yes, but did you see any other representation or figure, whatever it might be?
A. I can't charge my memory. There were some others, I be¬lieve, but I cannot tell what they were.
Q. You then went to Oldham-street?
A. I went then to the Infirmary-gardens.
Q. That is a vacant space of ground?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you observe any other body, when you were in the Infirmary-gardens?
A. Yes; I observed the people coming from Oldham, or Oldham-road at least.
Q. Had the Stockport people any band of music with them?
A. Yes, I think they had.
Q. Was it playing at the time they passed the Albion Hotel?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. With respect to this body coming from Oldham, now how many were there?
A. I should think there were more than in the body coming from Stockport. There were five or six thousand people, I should think. I did not stop until they had all passed, but they were not all in sight, and from what I saw of them, I conceived that body was greater than the body that came from Stockport.
Q. Was this body that came along Oldham-road, coming in the ordinary way in which people come into a town about business?
A. They were coming in the same manner as the others, with the same regularity.
Q. Could they have marched so, without previous preparation?
A. I believe not.
Q. In fact, I might repeal the question which I put to you, with respect to the other body. Did you ever see people come in about their ordinary business, in such numbers, and in such a re¬gular way?
A. No; except they were soldiers.
Q. Were they in divisions, or how?
A. There were flags in different parts of the line. I think there were two sets of flags, to the best of my recollection.
Q. Was there any thing else besides flags?
A. There were what I understood to be caps of liberty, at the tops of the flag-staffs.
Q. Had they any thing else with them?
A. Many of them had large sticks.
Q. Were they walking with them?
A. Some were walking with them, and some had them over their shoulders.
Q. How many flags were there?
A. I don't know the number.
Q. As near as you can guess, how many we're there?
A. There were more than there were in the Stockport division, I think; because, I think there were four or five flags in the Stock¬port division, and there were more in this.
Q. How many caps of liberty were there about?
A. Perhaps two, or perhaps more; I can't say.
Q. Did you hear any word of command given?
A. I saw some individuals out of the regular line, going actively backwards and forwards, and talking to them.
Q. Did those individuals appear to be at regular distances from each other, or how?
A. They did.
Q. Now, Sir, taking all these things together, was there any thing, in fact, said, either by you or by the persons about you, indicating any apprehensions?
A. I said, what I have told you before, that I was afraid of the consequences, and I wished to find this young man's officer, to see if he would allow him to go. His father was with me, and his father said, that he ought to be at home, for he was a boy, and not fit to be opposed to a man.
Q. Was there any body else except yourself near those, by whom observations were made, indicative of apprehensions or alarm?
A. I think there were some expressions used of that sort, but I cannot say what they were.
Q. Were the expressions indicative of alarm?
A. They were all alarmed like myself.
Q. Did you gather that, from what they said?
A. Yes, I did; I said that the sticks did not appear to me to be calculated for walking with.
Q. Did you say so?
A. I either said so or thought so; (a laugh) but I rather think I made the assertion.
The CORONER—I really must clear the room, if that kind of conduct is repeated. The place is so hot now, that it is scarcely possible to bear it.
Examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. ASHWORTH.

Q. That was your idea?
A. Yes; that was the impression on my mind.
Q. Were the shops open as usual, and was business going on as usual?
A. No; I think many of the window shutters were on the shop windows in Piccadilly.
Q. Did you see them?
A. Yes; I think the shop window shutters were up.
Q. Were they really so? Speak positively, if you can?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. Was business going on?
A. No; I think not.
Q. Were you doing any business?
A. I was doing no business. I was ordered to attend at St. James's-square, and I was going there.
Q. I think I understood you to say, that you then went to the ground?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see any other bodies of persons than those you have described?
A. I saw another body come in from Deansgate, with Mr. Hunt, as I understood, in a carriage.
Q. That was the first other body that you saw?
A. There were other bodies came on the ground whilst I was there: they came in the same direction on the ground as the other bodies, though they might have come in a different direction before.
Q. How long have you lived in Manchester?
A. Six years.
Q. Did all these bodies that came from Oldham-street, and Stockport-street, and so on, appear to you to be Manchester people?
A. No; I should have known some of them, if they had been.
Q. Did you see any Manchester people on the ground?
A. There were some individuals about me, that were Manchester people, whom I knew.
Q. Where did these different bodies range themselves, when they came on the ground?
A. They came towards the hustings, and gradually formed round the hustings.
Q. Was there any species of demonstration by the people assem¬bled, as these different bodies came on the ground?
A. There was a great deal of shouting, and waving of hats and sticks, as they came up.
Q. From whom was that shouting?
A. From the people coming in, and it was answered by the peo¬ple already assembled.
Q. And the waving of sticks—in what way was that?
A. It was in this way—[Here the Witness waved his hat, as il¬lustrative of his meaning.]
Q. And hats were waved in the same way?
A. Yes. Hats in the same way.
Q. Did you see any Manchester people that you knew, come to the ground in large bodies?
A. None. They appeared to me to be all strangers.
Q. Did the different bodies keep covered—I mean with their hats on, or did they take them off?
A. They had their hats always on, I think; except when they were using them for the purpose of shouting.
Q. When they stood round the hustings, were their hats on or off?
A. They were on, I think.
Q. I mean when they were in the position round the hustings?
A. I cannot speak to it positively. It did not strike me, that there was any thing particular or out of the way in the appear¬ance of their hats.
Q. Were the hustings then, where the people assembled, ultimately surrounded by strangers, or by Manchester people?
A. By strangers.
Q. You saw Mr. Hunt come on the ground?
A. I did.
Q. Did you see him before?
A. I saw him come up Peter-street, but I could not speak to his identity at that distance.
Q. Did a large body come with him, or how?'
A. A large body came with him.
Q. Was there any music with them?
A. Yes.
Q. And any flags?
A. Yes.
Q. Was the music playing as they came?
A. Yes.
Q. What number of flags were there in that body?
A. Four or five.
Q. Were there any caps of liberty?
A. I could not speak exactly to them.
Q. Did you see any thing like what you conceived to be caps of liberty?
A. Yes; I thought they were caps of liberty at the tops of the flag-posts.
Q. Did you see Mr. Hunt come up to the hustings?
A. I saw him near to the hustings, but I lost sight of him then, from the place where I first stood, on account of the people intercepting my view. Then I came up, and when I came up he was on the hustings.
Q. Were there the same demonstrations of shouts, and sticks, and hats waved in the air, when the body with which Mr. Hunt came, arrived, as there had been when the other bodies came on the ground?
A. Yes.
Q. You saw him on the hustings, you say, afterwards?
A. Yes.
Q. How many flags were there near the hustings at that time?
A. I should think twelve or fourteen.
Q. Immediately about the hustings?
A. Yes, all round the hustings.
Q. And caps of liberty?
A. Yes.
Q. How many do you think, about?
A. Five or six, perhaps there might be.
Q. Do you recollect the colour of any one of the flags near the hustings?
A. I saw a black one and a white one.
Q. Do you recollect the inscription that was on the black flag?
A. I think it was “LIBERTY or DEATH" on that, but I am not positive.
Q. Did you see any red flag?
A. I can't recollect.
Q. Did you see any thing green?
A. I can't say positively. It runs in my mind that green was a prevailing colour, but I can't charge my memory with it.
Q. Did you see any figure of any thing?
A. I think I saw a dagger—I mean a dagger at the end of a pole of a flag.
Q. Do you mean at the top of a pole, or drawn?—I mean de¬lineated upon a piece of silk?
A. No, it was shaped like a dagger.
Q. Was it of any particular colour?
A. I don't recollect.
Q. Did the flags you speak about, remain stationary about the hustings?
A. Yes.
Q. Then they were not in line?
A. No. I thought they were attached to the hustings.,
Q. Did you hear Mr. Hunt begin to address the people assembled?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know what he said?
A. I was not near enough to hear what he said, but I heard his voice.
Q. The Manchester Yeomanry then came on the ground?
A. They did.
Q. Now how were they received?
A. The people took off their hats and shouted, and waved their sticks.
Q. What sort of shouting was it?
A. It appeared to me at the time, as if it was in ridicule of the Yeomanry.
Q. Was any other thing done?
A. The Yeomanry halted.
Q. But I mean, by the people round the hustings?
A. They were making a noise and shouting.
Q. The flags were stationary, were they not?
A. Yes; I think so.
Q. They were not moved?
A. I think not. Though I rather think some of the flags were moved or waved in the same manner as the hats, when they came on the ground.
Q. When the Yeomanry came amongst the people, how did they come? How many abreast were they?
A. There was first one individual leading them, and they might be half a dozen abreast after—I should think so.
Q. Do you know what a column is?
A. No.
Q. But you say they were half a dozen abreast?
A. Yes.
Q. How had they their swords?
A. They waved their swords.
Q. In the air, or how?
A. In the air, this way—[here the witness again waved his hat, as illustrative of his meaning.]
Q. Where there any constables going before them, to the hustings?
A. There were.
Q. Was Mr. Nadin amongst them?
A. I think he was, but I can't be positive.
Q. You say there was some opposition before they got to the hustings?
A. Yes, immediately after they passed me.
Q. How far were they from the hustings, at that time?
A. I should think about ten yards.
Q. What was that occasioned by?
A. I thought it appeared to me as an opposition by the people, not to allow the Yeomanry to go up to the hustings.
Q. Did you see the people do any thing with their hands?
A. I saw nothing but stones thrown then.
Q. Then at the time of the pause, you saw some stones thrown?
A. Yes, just about that time-
Q. How far were the Yeomanry from the hustings then?
A. Some might be under the hustings—and some up to the hustings; but those near me were about ten yards from the hustings.
Q. Was the pause then, in the body near you?
A. It was in the first.
Q. Near you?
A No, in the first.
Q. Now in going up to the hustings, did you see a single individual of the Manchester Yeomanry use either the flat or the sharp side of his sword?
A. No.
Q. Did you see any single individual thrown down or trampled upon?
A. I can't particularly accuse any one; but I think the horses might have trampled on some persons.
Q. The special constables being before them, were they not as likely as any body else to be trampled upon?
A. One time I was before them, and I thought myself as likely to be trampled upon as any body else.
Q. And there were special constables along with you then?
A. Yes, where I was.
Q. After the stones were thrown, did you see any difference in the movement of the Yeomanry or their swords?
A. I could not see it then, as I was behind them.
Q. Was it at this time that you heard the report of pistols?
A. Perhaps a minute or two afterwards; when Mr. Hunt was taken off the hustings.
Q. When do you say it was?
A. I cannot speak positively, because it was all in such con¬fusion; but it was within a few minutes after: I think it was shortly after he was taken off the hustings.
Q. Did you see any soldiers in that direction in which these re¬ports appeared to be?
A. No, I did not.
Q. When was it you first saw some of the Cheshire Yeomanry or the 15th Hussars?
A. Immediately after the Manchester Yeomanry passed, I saw the Cheshire Yeomanry, and immediately after them, I saw the 15th Hussars.
Q. Was that after Mr. Hunt was removed?
A. When they were removing him.
Q. In what direction did they come?
A. They came round the corner of Mount-street.
Q. Did the Cheshire Yeomanry come quicker or slower than the Manchester Yeomanry?
A. I think they went quicker.
Q. How had they their swords?
A. Their swords were over their shoulders.
Q. How?
A. The 15th Hussars shouted, I think.
Q. No; but were they brandishing their swords?
A. I don't recollect whether they were brandishing their swords particularly.
Q. Now you saw the 15th Hussars come on the ground?
A. Yes.
Q. At what pace did they come on the ground?—Did they come quicker or slower than the Manchester Yeomanry?
A. They were very rapid.
Q. Did these corps, come each of them, on the ground, after the stones were thrown?
A. Some of them, were coming on the ground when I turned round to get towards the houses, and immediately after the stones were thrown.
Q. From all you saw of the three corps, did you see greater vio¬lence or rapidity on the part of the Manchester Yeomanry, than on the part of these two other corps?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you see the three bodies use their swords among the people?
A. I can't speak about the swords being used at all. I did not observe any particular case;

The WITNESS cross-examined by Mr. HARMER.
Q. The first body of the people that you saw, were coming past the Albion?
A. They were.
Q. And that body was composed of country people?
A. I suppose so.
Q. Men, women, and children?
A. Both men and women.
Q. And children also, were there not?
A. Yes.
Q. You say you never saw a body of people so orderly?
A. I never saw such a body of people.
Q. You never saw such a body of people walk with such regu¬larity, you said. Did you not?
A. Yes. What do you mean by regularity?
Q. Why, you understood what the learned Counsel meant by regularity. How is it you don't understand me?—They did, not come in like a violent mob rushing through the streets, creating terror and alarm, did they?
A. They came in a kind of military array, which was more im¬posing to my mind than an irregular mob would have been.
Q. I don't know whether you have ever been in London?
A. I have.
Q. You have lived there perhaps some time?
A. A short time.
Q. Did you ever happen to see the different trades-people go out in bodies to their bean-feasts?
A. No, I don't think I ever did.
Q. Did you ever see the bodies of firemen go in their pro¬cessions?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever see any of the processions that have taken place in this town? - Did you see the procession that took place here, at the time of the restoration of Louis XVIII. to the throne
of France? ,
A. I don't recollect any procession then.
Q. Why, recollect yourself. It is within six years, and was a very memorable occasion, that would surely attract the attention of every loyal man.
A. I don't recollect it.
Q.: Well; this assemblage of people had, to you, a very terrific appearance?
A. Yes, it had.
Q. They impressed your mind with an idea that there was great danger?
A. Yes.
Q. Was the first impression of that sort on your mind created by the appearance of the first body?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you saw the second body coming?
A. Yes.
Q. And of course that increased your terrors?
A. I don't know that it increased them.
Q. But when you saw the larger body coming with these women and children among them, did not that increase your alarm?
A. It could not, for it was so very bad at first.
Q. Then I think you saw Mr. Hunt advancing with a third large body?
A. I did.
Q. And those immense bodies, when congregated together, formed one large mass?
A. Yes/
Q. You thought such an assemblage extremely dangerous, you say?
A. I thought so.
Q. Of course, then, you thought it would be extremely danger¬ous to go among them or near them, when they were joined in one large body?
A. I was among them myself.
Q. Yes; and all these dangerous people formed themselves im¬mediately round the hustings?
A. They did.
Q. And you, with all your terrors and alarm, went within ten or fifteen yards of the hustings?
A. I did.
Q. You have told us that you have seen many larger masses of people than this?
Mr. ASHWORTH—That was said only with reference to the Stock¬port body.
The WITNESS—That was all.
Cross-examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. HARMER.
Q. The people were not armed?
A. I think not.
Q. Have you any doubt about it?
A. I think they were not,
Q. Do you mean to say you saw any weapon in the hands of any of them?
A. No, I do not think they had any weapons.
Q. Don't you know they had not?
A. Very well, Sir; then I admit it.

[Here Mr. Ashworth suggested that the witness should be accom¬modated with a seat, as he appeared from his paleness to be much exhausted. He was accordingly accommodated with a chair next to the Coroner.]

Q. Had the women and children you saw, any arms or weapons'?
A. None.
Q. These people, you say, in coming to the hustings, gave you an opportunity of getting to the field before them?
A. Yes.
Q. And they took some considerable time in walking to the field?
A. Of course it must take some time.
Q. And was not this immense mass of people some considerable time in congregating?
A. Yes.
Q. And the first body, you say, came with a coach at their head, on which was Mr. Moorhouse, who called out for a shout?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any thing very military in that?
A. No.
Q. Have you seen military bodies before?
A. Yes.
Q. And that is not very usual with them?
A. It is not very military to shout.
Q. The military were only a few minutes in clearing the field after they entered?
A. They were not many minutes.
Q. How long do you mean?
A. Perhaps five or six minutes. Perhaps they were as much as that in clearing the field; but I do not mean absolutely clear¬ing it; but the people were more scattered over the field, and
were not so united.
Q. Not in so compact or close a mass?
A. No.
Q. When the Yeomanry came in, they took the place where you were standing?
A. Yes.
Q. How long might you have been standing on that spot?
A. Perhaps I stood there about ten minutes, or a quarter of an hour.
Q. Within how many yards were you standing of the Magistrates' window?
A. I was standing close under it, and I had been away from it backwards and forwards.
The CORONER (to Mr. Harmer)—At which time do you mean?
Mr. HARMER—I mean, when the Manchester Yeomanry came up.
A. I was about fifty yards off then.
The cross-examination of the WITNESS resumed by the CORONER.
Q. You told us that there was no Riot Act read, nor any ex¬hortation from any one, for the people to disperse?
A. I did not hear any.
Q. Will you tell us what pace the Manchester Yeomanry came at, up to Mr. Buxton's house?
A. At a very sharp trot up to Mr. Buxton's house. Some were cantering, perhaps.
Q. Have you any doubt about it?
A. I have a doubt, whether they were all trotting or all cant¬ering.
Q. But they came at a quick pace?
A. Yes.
Q. In an orderly manner?
A. I think they came in an orderly manner up.
Q. Then, if any persons have said that they came up in confusion, you think those persons are mistaken?
A. Yes.
Q. They went into the crowd at a canter?
A. I think they were cantering.
Q. Have you any doubt about it?
A. They were the same in one case as in the other.
Q. But was there any cantering?
A. Some were cantering.
Q. At what pace did the leaders go?
A. Cantering, I think.
Q. Before they went in, did you see or hear any directions given them by any body, and by whom?
A. I saw a gentleman in coloured clothes on horseback speak to one of the officers, but I do not recollect who it was.
Q. You don't know who it was?
A. I don't now recollect, who it was.
Q. Do you mean to say that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you not know the person at the time?
A. I think I did. If his name was mentioned to me, I think I should recollect him.
Q. Perhaps Mr. Ashworth will suggest his name to you?
Mr. ASHWORTH—No, Sir, I do not know who it was.
The cross-examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. HARMER.
Q. Did you not see any orders or notice given by the Magistrates at the window, or indication to the military to advance?
A. I did not.
Q. You were summoned to attend on the ground?
A. Yes.
Q. You were a special constable?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And saw several of the special constables strike the people on the hustings?
A. I can't say I saw any man struck.
Q. Did you see the truncheons of the constables moving, as if they were striking?
A. I did.
Q. Did you go to the ground with a body of special constables?
A. Yes, I went with a body.
Q. How many special constables did that body consist of? Give us a guess?
A. Perhaps thirty or forty. Perhaps more.
Q. What number of special constables were there on the ground?
A. I should think there were seventy or eighty constables there altogether, or I should judge more; but you mean on the field?
Q. Yes; I mean on the field.
A. I did not observe more than seventy or eighty constables on the field in one body; but there were more on the field.
Q. Were they furnished with sticks?
A. They had staves.
Q. What you call truncheons?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they march in a body from St. James's-square?
A. I believe they did.
Q. Did you see them move?
A. Part of them.
Q. Were they not in military array?
A. No.
Q. Not in any order?
A. No.
Q. Then they were a straggling body?
A. No, not on the field.
Q. But you saw them, when they arrived?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Now, you told us a little time ago, that when you saw these poor people, you were very sorry for them, because you were afraid there would be blood spilt. Did you know that the mi¬litary were to attack them?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Had you not heard so?
A. No.
Q. Did you know that the Yeomanry were to come on the ground when the people were assembled?
A. No.
Q. Now at the time that the Yeomanry cantered into the crowd, had they their swords drawn?
A. They had.
Q. Did the people before them make way, or run away?
A. At what time?
Q. At the very time when they cantered into the crowd?
A. Many ran away; many were running.
Q. Why, you were carried by the crowd, I understand?
A. I went with them, or I was carried with them.
Q. How far could they run before they would be stopped by the immense body that was there? How far was it possible for any body to run, before they would be stopped by the crowd?
A. I should think about eighty yards.
The CORONER—He does not understand you.
Cross-examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. HARMER.

Q. You say the Manchester Cavalry came, cantering into the people, in a body?
A Yes.
Q. Cheering?
A. They cheered before: they cheered at starting.
Q. Now at that time, when the people ran away, which way could they get out of the field?
A. I should think they might get out by St. Peter-street.
Q. What was the number of persons, think you, that were on the field at that time?
A. I should think there were 50,000.
Q. Then do you mean to say that 50,000 people could get out of the way as fast as the horses could canter?
A. I don't know whether they could or not.
Q. Now you say, that there was a confusion among the Cavalry when they got some distance from the hustings?
A. There was some confusion, because they did not start regular.
Q. Did you not say, that there was some confusion when they were going up, which you thought arose, from the people opposing them?
A. Yes; I said that there was a pause.
Q. Had not the people run from the hustings as far and as fast as they could?
A. I don't know.
Q. What do you believe?
A. I was behind them then.
Q. You had had the good fortune to get out of the way?
A. Part of them got past me.
Q. I think you say you will not swear, but that part of the Yeomanry had got up to the hustings at the time these stones, you have talked about, were thrown?
A. No.
Q. You did not see any body struck with a sword?
A. No.
Q. You did not see a sword used?
A. No.
Q. Was your eye upon them?
A. Yes, going up to the hustings.
Q. And will you swear that there were not persons struck by the Yeomanry, when they were going up to the hustings?
A. No, Sir.
Q. Will you swear that you were not struck?
A. Yes.
Q. Did I understand you to say, that several were thrown down by the horses?
A. No.
The CORONER—They might have been, he said.

Cross-examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. HARMER.

Q. Do you not believe, that many were?
A. I do.
Q. Had a man, looking out of a chamber window near the Windmill, as good an opportunity of seeing all that passed, as you had?
A. I don't know the Windmill.
Q. You will not swear there were not some people cut?
A. There were none cut beside me, within my view.
Q. Now, that is an equivocal answer. Do you mean there were no persons cut at all?
A. Within my view. That is what I said before, and that is what I meant.
Q. Were you yourself cut at?
A. I only speak now to what happened previous.
Q. Were you yourself cut at?
A. Afterwards I was. I got a blow when I was in the crowd.
Q. At what period was that?
A. At the time Mr. Hunt was either going to the house in which the Magistrates were, or else he was in the house.
Q. Were you cut?
A. No.
Q. Were you struck?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you not told the name of the person who struck you?
A. I don't think I have.
Q. I will remind you of some of your own words. Did you not say to him “damn you, Sir, can't you see?"
A. I can't recollect it.
Q. Have you not told some person that you were cut at, and that you made use of that expression?
A. I cannot recollect what I may have said upon that subject. I cannot speak to it now.
Q. I must try your recollection a little more. Have you not told some person, that you would have been cut, if you had not exclaimed, “damn you, Sir, can you not see?"
A. I might have told many persons many things.
Q. That will not do, Sir. I now ask you upon your oath, was it not a person whom you personally knew, that cut at you?
A. No.
Q. Do you happen to know Mr. Fox?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Then, will you tell me now, whether you know the person who cut at you?
A. No, I do not.
The CORONER—Do you ask him whether it was Mr. Fox that cut at him?
Mr. HARMER—No, Sir.
Mr. ASHWORTH— It is continually put, Mr. Coroner, that he was cut, when in fact it was no such thing.
The WITNESS—No; it was only a blow with the flat side of a sword, which knocked my hat over my forehead.
The examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. HARMER.
Q. Do you know the person who struck you?
A. No.
Q. When, will you swear, was the first time that you saw a stone thrown?
A. I conceive it was before Mr. Hunt was taken into custody.
Q. Will you swear that?
A. To the best of my belief, I think it was so.
Q. Whereabouts' was the person that threw the stone, do you think?
A. On the other side of the hustings from that which the Yeomanry approached.
Q. Now, I will ask you, Sir, whether it was possible, in such a compressed body, for any person to throw a stone or a brick, until after a very considerable dispersion had taken place?
A. I don't know in what state the body was, in the place where the stone was thrown from.
Q. How long had the body of Yeomanry passed you, when the stone was thrown?
A. There were part of the Yeomanry near me at the time the stone was thrown. Part of the Yeomanry were up at the hustings at that time.
Q. Will you swear, that they were not in their way to Mr. Buxton's house, with Mr. Hunt, at the time?
A. I will.
Q. You were within ten or fifteen yards of the hustings, when the Yeomanry first came?
A. I think I was.
Q. How far did you run, before you got out of the way of the military?—The Yeomanry, I mean.
A. I made towards the hustings, and I got to the side of them.
Q. Then did you remain stationary after they passed?
A. No; I can't say exactly which way I passed, nor which way I went.
Q. Could any body choose which way to go? Were they not moving away in masses?
A. No; not where I was.
Q. But you were where the Yeomanry had cleared?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you have stated, that you lost sight of the hustings in the first instance; when you got sight of the hustings again, what did you see?
A. The people on the hustings.
Q. And after you had seen the people there then, how long was it before the hustings were cleared?
A. In the course of three or four minutes; or five minutes, it might be.
Q. Well, you say they were five minutes before they cleared the hustings after the Yeomanry got to them?
A. I cannot speak to the time exactly.
Q. Will you swear they were two minutes clearing the hustings?
A. I think I may swear that.
Q. You say that the people began to disperse?
A. Yes.
Q. When?
A. I conceived they began to disperse as soon as the Yeomanry appeared on the ground.
Q. Were they not struck with terror, and did they not disperse immediately?
A. There was a great many who were struck with terror and did disperse.
Q. And did they not endeavour to get off the field?
A. They ran.
Q. Did they not run and endeavour to escape?
A. I don't know what their endeavours were made at.
The CORONER—He tells you what he thinks.
The WITNESS—I don't know what their endeavours were point¬ed to.

The cross-examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. HARMER.

Q. Don't you know, they were running away from the Manchester Yeomanry?
A. Yes.
Q. And did not the Manchester Yeomanry gallop after them?
A. Up to the hustings.
Q. Did you not see them running afterwards, and the soldiers galloping after them?
A. Yes; I did.
Q. Did you not see the soldiers overtake them and strike them?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you not see them overtake them?
A. I saw them pass them. There were people behind them and before them.
Q. What do you mean by the soldiers galloping after them then?
A. I saw them running, and the soldiers running after them.
Q. You did not see the soldiers, then, doing any thing to them?
A. I did not.
Q. Perhaps you doubt that there was any one wounded that day?
A. Oh no, I do not.
Q. The first firing, you say, was when Mr. Hunt was in the house, or when he was going to the house?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was in the direction of Deansgate?
A. That was my conception.
Q. You have a conception, then, that it was not a firing by soldiers, because there were no soldiers there?
A. I did not see any.
Q. Might there not be soldiers there, without your seeing them?
A. There might.
Q. Did you hear of any Yeomanry being shot?
A. At what time?
Q. At that period?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Will you give us the names of those gentlemen that you saw among the Yeomanry that day, and who passed you in their way to¬wards the hustings?
Mr. ASHWORTH—I think, I cannot permit that question to be asked.
The CORONER—No. He shall not answer that. I cannot see how it is to apply.
Mr. HARMER—Well, Sir, of course I cannot help it, and I must bow to your decision. I have urged the matter thus far.
Mr. ASHWORTH—I should not have offered evidence to rebut the testimony you have given as to the character of the meeting, if you did not attempt to introduce the names of persons uselessly.
Mr. HARMER—I have a right to know the names of all the per¬sons who participated in the violent outrage upon this meeting. It is absolutely necessary for the purposes of justice that it should be answered.
Mr. ASHWORTH—I trust the Coroner will put an end to this. This gentleman ought only to cross-examine, to facts arising out of the examination in chief, and ought not to be suffered to cross-ex¬amine to collateral facts. I say this is collateral facts.
Mr. HARMER—I beg pardon. I submit to the Coroner that this is not collateral facts, [t is a general proposition that persons were assaulted, and some of them were murdered.
The CORONER—Who he saw cut or wound any body, I will allow you to ask.
Mr. HARMER—That would be very absurd, Sir, for me to do, after the witness has already declared that he did not see any body actually cut.
The CORONER—I can't see the use of your asking the questions you have asked.
Mr. HARMER—Well, Sir, I shall not argue the point.
Mr. ASHWORTH—I certainly submit that it is an objectionable question. In Mr. Phillips's Treatise on the Law of Evidence, Sir, I find it thus laid down:—
*" In cross-examinations, the object of which is to sift evidence and try the credibility of witnesses, a great latitude is allowed in putting questions. The rule, however, is subject to certain limitations. A witness cannot be examined to any fact which (if admitted) would be collateral and wholly irrelevant to the matter in issue."—

Then I submit that this is collateral to the wounding of John Lees.

The CORONER—I do, not think it is admissible, Mr. Harmer, unless you show that this witness saw some people cut. If he saw any one person cut, then you are at liberty to ask the name of the person who cut him.
Mr. HARMER—That would be very absurd, indeed, Sir, after the witness tells me, and of course I must give him credit for speaking the truth, that he did not see any one cut. The learned gentle¬man gives us the doctrine laid down by Mr. Phillips, but which, I submit, has nothing to do with the question I have put to this wit¬ness. No doubt, I cannot ask the witness as to collateral facts. I could not ask him when he had been in London, and what he had seen there; because that is collateral. But surely, I may ask him the names of those Yeomanry who proceeded into the crowd with their swords drawn. I have proved already that they did cut, by abundant testimony.

* Phillips's Law of Evidence, p. 228; and vide post.

The CORONER—You have not proved that the same Yeomanry cut.
Mr. HARMER—I beg your pardon, Sir; I have proved that it was the Manchester Yeomanry who went into the crowd in this man¬ner; and I have proved that they cut the people.
Mr. ASHWORTH—The issue here is, how did John Lees come to his death? Does giving up the names of the Manchester Yeomanry shew how he came to his death?
Mr. HARMER—Certainly, I submit that it does. I have pro¬duced numerous authorities to shew, that all the persons who are present, aiding and abetting, when a death wound is given, are chargeable with murder; because the design of one, is the design of all. The learned gentleman told us at Oldham, that he ought not to be expected to carry his library in his pocket; he is now close to his own library; he has access, no doubt, to ail the law libraries in Manchester; and I defy him now, to produce a single authority, to controvert the doctrine, that I have submitted to you, Sir. I have produced an abundance of cases, and they remain un¬answered.
Mr. ASHWORTH—The Coroner is of opinion that they have been satisfactorily answered.
Mr. HARMER—They have been only answered by your asser¬tions, Sir, which, I submit, are no answers at all.
The CORONER—They have been answered, because it appears there is no principal; and therefore, we cannot enquire into the cause of the accessories.
Mr. HARMER—The delusion, as I have before said, into which Mr. Ashworth has endeavoured to lead you, Sir, is, by drawing a distinction here, between principal and accessory, which in point of fact docs not exist; because I charge them all as principals.
The CORONER—And I can't believe your charge.
Mr. HARMER—It is my duty, Sir, to submit with all due defe¬rence, that the question which I put to the witness is a legal ques¬tion, and ought to be answered.
The CORONER—I think it is not admissible evidence. Now, will you ask any more questions?
Mr. HARMER—No, Sir. It is no use for me to ask any more questions, when I am thus interrupted and interdicted.
The WITNESS examined by the CORONER—(Mr. Ashworth suggesting the questions).
Q. Now, about what number of women do you suppose there might be in the bodies that you saw come into the town?
A. There might be about one to ten.
Q. So many?
A. I suppose so.
Q. What proportion of children might there be?
A. It struck me, that there were not many children. There were very few.
Q. What do you mean by children?
A. I mean boys from eight to twelve years of age.
Q. And there were not many of that description?
A. No.
Q. Now, upon the ground, what proportion of the whole body that you saw, were women and children?
A. I can't think there was a twentieth part altogether.
Q. Could the witness swear, that there was a fiftieth part altogether?
A. No.
Q. Could he swear that there was one hundredth part women and children?
A. I should think I might safely do that.
Q. Children such as you describe?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when the Yeomanry were coming up to the hustings, were there not plenty of room and time by St. Peter's-street, by the end of Dickenson-street, and by Prince's-street, for the people to begin to disperse?
A. Certainly, there was time for them to begin, I have no doubt.
Q. Must not, in fact, that beginning to disperse, have removed the people from about the hustings?
A. I thing it must.
Q. Do you mean, that if those who were actually outside the crowd had moved, it would have allowed those up at the hustings time to move also?
A. Yes.
Q. When you saw the Yeomanry at the hustings, were the hust¬ings clear of people, or how?
A. No; there were people round the hustings.
Mr. HARMER—We are now getting, Sir, into quite a new exami¬nation.
The CORONER—I think not. I think Mr. Ashworth is at liber¬ty to suggest any questions to me that he wishes to be answered, after he has closed his own examination.
The examination of the WITNESS resumed, in the same manner.
Q. Was there sufficient opportunity, before the Cavalry came up, for the people to escape from about the hustings?
A. I think they might, on this side between the Yeomanry and the hustings.
Q. I only want to know, whether they might not have cleared the hustings, before the military got up?
A. My conception is, that they might, perhaps, if they had been very anxious to do it.
Q. Do you mean, to make room for the soldiers to come up?
A. Yes.

The WITNESS examined by the CORONER—(Mr. Harmer suggesting the questions).
Q. Did you yourself think it necessary to move from where you stood, until you saw the Manchester Yeomanry come galloping and cantering into the crowd?
A. No; I did not think it necessary, until I expected them com¬ing up.
Q. But did you think it necessary to move until you saw them come cantering into the crowd?
A. No.
Q. Do you mean to say, that from the time the Manchester Yeomanry came cantering into the crowd, and the time they got up to the hustings, there was sufficient time for the people to have clear¬ed away?
A. They might have cleared that side of the hustings.
Q. How many thousands of people do you suppose there were,
on that side of the hustings? '
A. Some thousands: two thousand, perhaps.
The WITNESS examined by the CORONER.
Q. You said, that in five or six minutes the field might be clear¬ed. Do you mean, there might not be any of the crowd left?
A. When I say that the meeting might be dispersed, I don't mean that the field would be completely cleared.
Q. But at the expiration of five or six minutes, how many peo¬ple were there still left?
A. I should think there might be some thousands still.
Q. Within your view?
A. Yes.

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