Martha Kearsley Eyewitness Account

• Place: Oldham
• Role: Spectator

Testified at Lees Inquest. She was present at St. Peter’s field – saw actions of violence from the soldiers, and saw one man cut.

Account

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MARTHA KEARSLEY called in and sworn.

Q. Where do you live?
A. At Oldham.
Q. Are you married or single?
A. I am single, Sir.
Q. What do you know about the death of John Lees?
A. I was at Manchester, Sir, on the 16th of August last.
Q. How came you to be there?
A. I went there on that day, to the Meeting.
Q. Well, what did you see there?
A. I saw two soldiers striking at a man, and he was endeavour¬ing to keep them off, when another came up and cut him on the back of the shoulder.
Q. Whereabouts did this happen?
A. It was near the hustings.
Q. Where were you at the time, to see all this?
A. I was sitting on the edge of Mr. Hunt's carriage.
Q. At what part of the carriage; was it with the coachman?
A. No; I was sitting behind.
Q. Were there any other women on the carriage besides yourself?

A. No; there were persons within the carriage, but none on the outside except me.
Q. What time of the day was this?
A. I can't say.
Q. How long had you been there before it happened?
A. I don't know, Sir.
Q. Did you know John Lees?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Why, how long have you lived in Oldham?
A. Ten or eleven years.
Q. What distance do you live from Lees?
A. I cannot tell, Sir.
Q. How long would it take you to go from your house to where John Lees lived?
A. I could go from my home to his in five minutes across the fields, and in ten minutes by the streets.
Q. Was the deceased behind or before you?
A. He was before me.
Q. But how was he with respect to the carriage?
A. I was behind the carriage, and he was before me.
Q. That is no answer. You have not said in which way you were seated, whether with your face or back to the coachman: from your appearance you might be expected to give better evi¬dence?
A. I wish, Sir, to tell the truth.

[The witness here described that the carriage was a landau, the top being thrown open. She sat on the hind part of the covering, with her back to the coachman.]

Examination of the Witness resumed by the CORONER.
Q. Were the soldiers on horseback?
A. They were.
Q. Did you know them?
A. I neither knew them, nor the man that they cut.
Q. What coloured clothes had they on?
A. I cannot say particularly; but I saw they were soldiers.
Q. How long had the man been engaged with the two soldiers when the other came?
A. Not many minutes; he had been preventing their blows, when the third soldier came up, and struck him with a sword.
Q. Are you certain he struck him intending to cut him?
A. I am sure he did.
Q. Did you hear him say any thing?
A. I did not.
Q. Were there many men there at the time?
A. Yes, Sir; there were men on all sides.
Q. What became of him after he was struck? Did he fall down, or go away?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. Why, as you were looking at him, you must know?

A. No, Sir, I don't. I was so struck with horror, that I turned round, and saw no more of him.
Q. Did you see any person cut after this?
A. Yes, many.
[A note was here handed in to a Juror, by a constable.]
Mr. HARMER (to the Coroner)—Sir, I perceive some paper given to one of this Jury. I am sure you will agree with me, that no communication ought to be made to the Jury but through you, and if the note relates to this business, it ought to be handed to you and made public.
The CORONER (to Mr Harmer)—No step but what is regular shall be taken, whatever may be the consequence.

[On explanation of the communication alluded to, it turned out to be a note from a person named James Mills, desiring that he might be called in to give evidence.]

The CORONER—(addressing the Constable)—You must not hand any thing to the Jury without my first seeing it.

The Examination of the Witness resumed by the CORONER.

Q. Was the deceased the first person you saw struck?
A. I can't say he was.
Q. Did you remain on the outside of the carriage?
A. No; I got into the carriage for safety, and continued there till a constable came and opened the door, and I escaped by the way the soldiers had come.
Q. Where did you go to then?
A. I went to my uncle's in Thomas-street, No. 45.
Q. Did you get there without molestation?
A. Yes, Sir. I got out of the crowd, and ran up the street with¬out any impediment.
Q. Where were the soldiers then?
A. They were after the people in the crowd.
Q. Did you see any gentlemen on horseback?
A. I saw only one.
Q. How was he dressed; in coloured clothes?
A. No, he was in black.
Q. Did you meet with any soldiers?
A. No, I left them all behind me.
Q. Does Thomas-street lead to High-street?
A. It leads many ways, I can't say whether it leads to High-street.
Q. Woman! You have more sense than you choose to let out. I won't be thus dealt with. Have you been five hundred or one hundred, or twenty-five times in Manchester?
A. I can't say how often, because I was often carried there when a child.
Q. You must know I was not asking you when you were carried there as a child: give me a proper answer. How often have you been there since you grew up?
A. I do not know.

Q. You know where the Bridgewater Arms lies?
A. I have seen it many times, but I don't know how far it is from High-street.
Q. Have you been so often in Manchester and don't know that? —How do you know High-street?
A. I know the streets by the names being painted up at the corners.
Q. I thought you knew more than you chose to tell?
A. But you asked me how they lay, and that I cannot tell.
Q. How many times did you see this man struck?
A. Once.
Q. Did you see any thing more of him?
A. I did not see the man or the soldiers any more.
Q. Where was he struck, do you say?
A. On the shoulders.
Q. Did you see Mr. Hunt?
A. Yes; I saw him come from the carriage to the hustings.
Q. Where were you then?
A. I was standing on the ground near the hustings.
Q. How far were you from the hustings?
A. I can't say particularly; I did not measure it.
Q. Is that the only answer you choose to give me, woman?
A. I have told you the truth, and I have nothing more to say.
Mr. HARMER (to the Coroner)—I beg pardon, Sir, for interfering; but really, Mr. Coroner, I cannot help saying you examine this witness in a tone and manner very different to what you did Mr. Cox.
The CORONER (to Mr. Harmer)—I believe I am as mild in examining her as I was examining Dr. Cox. But she has exhausted my patience.
Mr. HARMER (to the Coroner)—Forgive me if I differ with you on that point, and allow me to say, that in all the Inquisitions I have seen, the usual course has been to ask the witnesses to give their own account of what had come under their observation, and after they have concluded them, to question them if any thing remained unstated or ambiguous. This was your course with Dr. Cox, but this witness, you cross-examine in the outset.
The CORONER (to Mr. Harmer)—I believe I have seen as many Inquests as Mr. Harmer, and conducted them as well as he has seen them conducted.
Mr. HARMER (to the Coroner)—I have no doubt of that, Sir, but I thought you put the questions to the witness in a manner rather calculated to confound and perplex, than to extract the truth.
The CORONER (to Mr. Harmer)—I am surprised the witness does not answer otherwise than she does. When I ask as to distance, she answers “I did not measure it." Is that the right way of answering?
Mr. HARMER (to the Coroner)—I would not attempt to excuse or sanction any thing like pertness in a witness; but I think if I could be allowed to examine her, she would give satisfactory answers.
The CORONER (to Mr. Harmer)—I thought she had been examined before. She knew what party she came to give evidence for.
Mr. HARMER (to the Coroner)—I assure you, Sir, I have not examined her. I did not even know her name till this morning, and I beg to say, I know of no party witnesses.
The CORONER (to Mr. Harmer)—I am for no party.
Mr. HARMER (to the Coroner)—God forbid you should be, Sir.
The CORONER (turning to Witness)—Your method of answering questions, and your refusal to answer, occasioned all this.
The WITNESS (to the Coroner)—I beg pardon if I have offended you, Sir; I meant to speak the truth, and I have spoken the truth as far as I can.
Mr. HARMER (to the Witness)—Yes, but recollect you must speak the whole truth, and consider the gentleman's questions, and understand them well before you answer. Perhaps, as you appear distressed and fatigued with this long examination, the Coroner will allow you to take a chair, as all the other witnesses have been seated during their examination.
The CORONER—Yes, certainly, you may be seated.

Examination of the Witness resumed by the CORONER.

Q. How did you know that the man who opened the carriage door was a constable?
A. By his having a truncheon in his hand.
Q. Did you see any person on the ground that you knew to be a Magistrate or justice of the peace?
A. Not unless the man on horseback was one.
Q. Do you know NADIN the constable?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Do you know what became of HUNT?
A. No, I took no notice of him after he left the hustings.
Q. How far distant was the carriage from the hustings?
A. A very short distance; not more than a yard, or a yard and a half.
Q. Did you see Mr. Hunt get on the hustings?
A. I did.
Q. How long did he remain there?
A. I saw him there for about a quarter of an hour, as near as I can guess, but the soldiers came among the people, and I did not see him taken away.
Q. Did the man who you saw struck, offer any violence to the soldiers?
A. I did not see him, he only prevented the blows.
Q. Did he strike or throw any thing?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Had he nothing in his hand?
A. I can't particularly say; he had nothing that I saw.
Q. Did you see any of the soldiers off their horses?
A. Not one.
Q. How long were you on the ground?
A. About half an hour or twenty minutes.
Q. Did you see or hear any thing of the Riot Act being read?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Was there any tumult?
A. None till the soldiers came in.
Q. What occasioned any tumult?
A. The soldiers coming and cutting and slashing among the people.
Q. Was the man in question the first you saw cut?
A. He was the first that I took particular notice of but I saw them cut as they came up to the hustings to make the people give way.
Q. Did the soldiers come before or behind you?
A. They came before me.
Q. How many soldiers were there?
A. I cannot particularly say the number.
Q. Can you not give an idea of about the number?
A. I really cannot; if I could I would.
Q. Did you hear any cheering?
A. Yes: they cheered before the soldiers came up, when they were first in sight of the hustings.
Q. How long was it after they came in sight, that they came up to the hustings?
A. I could not have read two chapters in the Bible before they came up.
Q. Where did you first see the soldiers?
A. At one side of the crowd; they were then shaking their swords.
Q. Whereabouts?
A. It was on one side.
Q. You must be more particular.
A. I can't be more particular; they were on one side, very near to the people.
Q. Do you know who shouted at that end of the crowd?
A. I cannot say particularly, but there was a great deal of noise.
Q. In what order did the soldiers come to the hustings?
A. To the best of my knowledge they came two and two.
Q. Did they canter or gallop?
A. I can't say how fast they came.
Q. What coloured clothes did the soldiers wear?
A. I did not take notice.
The CORONER (addressing the Witness)—I have no more questions to ask you.
Mr. HARMER (to the Witness)—I am glad to hear that you read your Bible.
The CORONER (to Mr. Harmer)--I must now proceed regularly. I have allowed you, hitherto, to put questions because I wished for the fullest investigation; but as you have found fault with me, I must therefore proceed legally. Can you give an instance in which you have cross-examined at an inquest?
Mr. HARMER—I never, Sir, knew a case in which it was necessary; and as I scorn to utter an untruth, I am ready to admit I never saw an instance of its being practiced. At the same time I must inform you, that I have been professionally employed to at¬tend inquests before Mr. SHELTON, the Coroner for the city of Lon¬don, than whom a more honourable and correct man does not exist; and I may venture to say, without fear of contradiction, that no man's opinion on the criminal law, or its administration, can be more respected than his; and this gentleman whom I have so at¬tended, has permitted me to suggest questions; and to elicit facts, he has always asked them: in this case I wished to do no more, and if there has been any irregularity, I am not to blame, because you yourself called upon me to ask any questions I thought proper.
The CORONER (to Mr. Harmer)—You have already had your examination.
Mr. HARMER.—I do not understand you, Sir.
The CORONER (to Mr. Harmer)—You asked this witness a question.
Mr. HARMER (to the Coroner)—I perhaps might; but if so, it was merely in explanation. Do you call that an examination? Am I to understand that you prohibit my examining the witnesses?
The CORONER (to Mr. Harmer)—No; but you found fault with my mode of examination, which you have no business to do.
Mr. HARMER (to the Coroner)—I assure you, Sir, I did not in¬tend any thing rude or offensive, when I suggested that the witness appeared embarrassed by your tone and manner of questioning her: you did not, certainly, get a ready answer from the witness, and perhaps that occasioned your temper to be ruffled, especially as, I remember you said, your patience was exhausted.
The CORONER (to Mr. Harmer)—I shall allow you who are here for the friends of the deceased to examine, be it regular or irregular. If there were none of you attending, I would have extracted the whole truth to the best of my power. If the witnesses are dis-posed to give a partial story, I must get the whole. You extracted, in some instances, that the people were peaceable; but if the testimony varies, I must re-examine, without its being said that I do not discharge my duty properly, or like other Coroners.
Mr. HARMER (to the Coroner)—I have already said, Sir, that I meant no offence; I hope I have given you none.
The CORONER (to Mr. Harmer)—I think you spoke too much when you reminded me that Dr. Cox ought to have been examined differently; I am sure he gave his evidence very clearly, and with¬out any hesitation.
Mr. HARMER—(to the Coroner)—Mr. Cox whispered, and I could not therefore hear him so distinctly as you did, who were sitting next him; but to me, his mode of giving evidence seemed more to have justified that kind of examination, than the young wo-man's. You, perhaps, had cause to be offended with some of her answers. I am sorry that she did not answer more explicitly; but the rapidity of the questions I thought confused her.
The CORONER—(to Mr. Harmer)—I gave her time enough; but I saw an unwillingness to answer. Could not she have told me whether she had been two hundred or five hundred times in Manchester?
Mr. DENISON—Numbers are, of all things, most apt to confuse a witness.
Mr. HARMER—(to the Coroner) —And she explained, that hav¬ing been often carried to Manchester when an infant, she could not venture to speak to the number of times she had been there.
The CORONER.—(to Mr. Harmer)—I only asked her as to her knowledge—But, Mr. Harmer, you had better go on with the wit¬ness.

Witness examined by Mr. HARMER.
Q. You were at the meeting when Mr. Hunt came in?
A. I was.
Q. Did the people cheer him on his entrance?
A. They did.
Q. You said that the people cheered the soldiers when they came; now were the cheers given in the same way as those given to Mr. Hunt?
A. They were.
Q. When the soldiers entered, did the people oppose them, or endeavour to getaway?
A. They tried to get away, but it was impossible. The soldiers did not give them time, although they got away as quick as they could.
Q. Were there a great many persons at the hustings and close about that spot when the soldiers came up?
A. Yes, a great many; they were crowded very close together there.
Q. Did the soldiers use their swords to these persons without allowing them time to disperse, or get away?
A. Yes, they did; and cut and slashed as they came up.
Q. I think you said you were not certain whether they wounded the man in question, because you turned your head away to avoid seeing the consequences; but are you sure you saw him struck?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Was the blow so aimed as to be likely to wound?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. You have told the gentleman that you met no impediment in getting off the ground, was that because the soldiers had then cleared the crowd from the spot, and thus afforded you a free passage?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you notice the dress of the man who was struck?
A. I saw he had on a dark coloured coat.
Mr. HARMER—(to the Coroner)—I wish the deceased's coat to be produced again; Robert Neald is, I understand, at the door with it.

ROBERT NEALD was called in, and produced the Coat.

Mr. HARMER—(to the Witness, Martha Kearsley)—Look at that coat, and tell me if it is like the one worn by the man to whom you have alluded?
A. The colour of the coat is the same the man had on, to the best of my knowledge; but I cannot swear to the coat, because I only saw the man when the act was committed.

The Witness, MARTHA KEARSLEY, re-examined by the CORONER.
Q. After you got home did you tell any one what you had seen respecting this man?
A. Yes, Sir, I told it that night, and repeatedly afterwards in the week, of this man that I took most notice of, without any expectation of this.
Q. Did you ever speak as to the colour of the coat?
A. Yes.
Q. What colour was it?
A. It was a dark coloured one, like this (pointing to the one produced) corbeau or brown. I described it as such.
Q. Did the man fall after the cut?
A. I can't say whether he did or not.
Q. Might it not be some other dark colour. Don't you call blue a dark colour?
A. I call corbeau or dark brown a dark colour.
Q. That is the only answer you give to my question?
A. Yes, Sir; I don't know what other answer I can give.
The CORONER—Well, you may withdraw.

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