John Jones Eyewitness Account

• Place: Manchester
• Role: Spectator
• Occupation: Fustian-cutter

Testified durimg the Lees Inquest. Describes the panic of people fleeing, being crushed, and personally identifies two members of the Yeomanry using their sabres.

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JOHN JONES called in, sworn, and examined by the CORONER.

Q. Where do you reside?
A. In Windmill-street.
Q. At what number in Windmill-street?
A. At No. 14.
Q. What is your trade?
A. I am a fustian-cutter.
Q. State what you know relative to the death of John Lees?
A. I cannot say anything as to his death.
Q. Did you ever know him?
A. No.
Q. Nor saw him, that you know of?
A. No.
Q. Have you seen him since he has been dead?
A. Yes.
Q. Where?
A. When he was laid out.
Q. How happened that?
A. I came over here as a witness, and I went up there to see him.
Q. Do you know of his having received any injury or any wound any where?
A. No.
The Coroner (to Mr. Harmer)- There, you see, he knows nothing of the injuries, or the wound.
The Witness – But I saw them cutting and hacking at the people round the hustings, and he might, perhaps, be one as well as another.

The examination of the WITNESS resumed by the CORONER.
Q. What do you mean by “them?”
A. The Manchester Cavalry.
Q. Well, what else did you see?
A. I looked through my own window there; and I saw they turned their horses from the hustings, and then rode right down the Croft, among the people.
Q. Did you see at the same time, and out of the same place, and from the same window as your wife?
A. Yes; she saw over my head. I was in the chamber; and then the Cavalry made a charge upon the people.
Q. When was that?
A. They first went up to the hustings, and then they turned round, and made a charge upon the people. It was all in confusion, and the people were running in all directions, and the Cavalry were running over them, and cutting at all they could get near.
Q. That was after they left the hustings?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, go on.
A. The people came down in great crowds past my door, and a parcel of them beat down the fence. The stumps were all down on the ground, and also the stones were put out of their places.— There was a large stump there with a stone at the bottom. It was an oak stump, about twelve inches square, and then there was a large stone at the bottom to keep it tight. The people were so pressed against there, that they could not get away; and they kept cutting away at them in the comer, and the shrieks would astonish you, and they were laying on them all the time as hard as they could lay on them, and an officer belonging to the soldiers came up and said, “Gentlemen! gentlemen! for shame! forbear! the people cannot get away."
Q. This was before your door, you say?
A. Yes; and then another gentleman came, and just as they were saying so to these Cavalry-men, the rail broke down at my door, and let a whole number of the people into my cellar; and at the bottom of my cellar there was a woman took up dead. Then another soldier came up, and told us to shut the window, or he would fire at us, and when the window was shut, a daughter of mine came down and told me the same, and then I went down, upon her saying so, to see who was there; and upon my getting down stairs, I found the lobby full of men, and the panel of the door was broken open, and they were pulling the people through.
Q. Did you want to get out?
A. Yes. I then went into the house, and opened the window, and there I saw a man lying down, and I saw one of the constables there, and I said, “turn up that man's face, I think I know him," and they were lying in all directions, and some of them were as black in the face as they could be, and their eyes nearly starting out of their heads. I went to the door again and forced it open, but I should tell you, when I went down stairs into the lobby, I there found my mistress pulling them in at the hole in the door, and I could not get out, and I went to the window.
Q. What did you see from the window?
A. I saw them lying all of a heap together, and while they were all of a heap together, they were all with their eyes starting out of their heads, and like strangling; and when they were separated they began—[here the Witness made that sort of noise in his throat which might be supposed to be incidental to strangulation]—just as if they were strangled, and then when we went down again, a lad, a nephew of mine, picked one man up, and apparently he had not a grain of life in him, and he gave him some water, and was trying to bring him too; and there was Withington and Bowker cutting at the people as hard as ever they could.
Q. Don't tell us that, Sir; it is not evidence. What was it your nephew did?
A. He was trying to bring this man too.
Q. And did he at last shew signs of life?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. How soon did you go out of doors again?
A. In about ten minutes, and then I saw Withington and Bowker cutting.
Mr. Ashworth (to the Coroner)—Do you think this is evidence, Sir? I object to all this.

The WITNESS appeared to be going on.

The Coroner—Stop! stop! Sir.

The WITNESS persisted. I saw Withington and Bowker and another of them cutting away as hard as ever they could at the people, and the poor people were running away as fast as ever they could, and every one that passed them they made a cut at.
Mr. Ashworth—What can this have to do with the case?
Mr. Harmer—I say it has to do with the case.
The Coroner –I say it can have nothing to do with the case, and I conceive that it has nothing to do with the case.
The WITNESS proceeded. We were trying to bring this poor man too, and one young man was giving him some water, when a special constable came up, and knocked my basin out of his hand and broke it.
The Coroner—This is not admissible.
Mr. Harmer—I submit, Sir, that it is part of the same transaction, and clearly admissible evidence.

The WITNESS examined by Mr. HARMER.
Q. What Cavalry were these?
A. The Manchester Cavalry.
Q. Were Withington and Bowker dressed in the Manchester Cavalry uniform?
A. Yes.
Mr. Ashworth—Did this which you have described take place at the hustings?
A. No.
Mr. Ashworth—Then I object to it; it has been objected to over and over again, and it has been determined over and over again, that what was done in any part of the field but about the hustings, was not evidence. I really hope and trust, Mr. Coroner, that you will put a stop to this, which is only intended to consume time, and to point out particular individuals to odium and indignation.
The Coroner—I shall settle this business very shortly.

The examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. HARMER.
Q. Did the Yeomanry Cavalry come in a direction towards your house?
A. Yes, some of them came in a body.
The Coroner—This has nothing to do with it.
Mr. Harmer—I beg your pardon, Sir, it has something to do with it; every act done by the military is to be enquired into.
The Coroner (to the Witness)—Now you have first said that you saw something, and then you went in, and after about ten minutes you came out again?
A. Yes.
The Coroner—And then you saw what you have been now describing?
A. Yes.
The Coroner—Then it is not evidence at all. (To Mr. Harmer)-l desire if you have any more such witnesses as these, that you will not call them. If they are to speak to this sort of facts, they are not evidence.
Mr. Harmer—I shall produce all the witnesses, Sir, that i think can give legal evidence upon the subject.

The WITNESS cross-examined by Mr. ASHWORTH.
Q. When these Cavalry got up to the hustings, you say they turned into the crowd to disperse them?
A. Yes.
Q. When you talk about cutting and hacking, did you see any one single man cut?
A. No, but I could see their arms going in this way(here the Witness moved his arm, as descriptive of his meaning)-at the people on the hustings.
Q. But, I ask you when they turned from the hustings, did you see any one person actually cut?
A. No, but they were going on the same way. They came from the hustings.
Q. Did you not say, they turned from the hustings?
A. They turned their backs to the hustings, and came down in a body upon the people.
Q. Do you mean to say, that you saw any one person cut near the hustings?
A. My house is so far from where the hustings were, that I could not discern any one cut in particular, but every one that came within their reach, they struck at.
Q. Was there not a great deal of dust at this time?
A. I cannot say to that.
Q. Was there not a great deal of dust?
A. I don't recollect that there was.
Q. Will you swear that you saw any one person cut with the sharp part of a sword, and that you saw it done?
A. I will not swear that. ;
Q. This, you see, is your “cutting and hacking?"
A. And so they were cutting and hacking, as hard as ever they could?
Q. Do you call using the flat side of the sword cutting and hacking? or is the flat side of the sword capable of hacking, Sir, or cutting?
A. I could not see so far off distinctly, that any body was cut.
Q. Do you mean to state, that you saw the persons thrown down, and the blood that you describe, with all the aggravation that it is possible for you to give?
A. Yes.
Q. You swear you saw the people thrown down by them?
A. Yes; by their force. They forced the people in that way, so that they could not getaway; and they heard their shrieks and groans, and for ail that they would not allow them an opportunity of escaping.

[Mr. Ashworth was here about to put another question immediately.]

Mr. Harmer—Pray, Mr. Ashworth, let there be time given for the Coroner to take the witness's answer down.
The Coroner—It is a very long answer.
Mr. Harmer—Therefore, Sir, it requires more time should be allowed you to write it throughout.

The cross-examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. ASHWORTH.
Q. Do you mean to say, that the Cavalry touched any one per¬son who was so thrown down?
A. They could not get at them, for the rest of the people were between them.
Q. Do you mean to state, that near your own house you saw any one cut?
A. I did not see them actually cut, but I saw a great many per¬sons that were cut?

[Mr. Ashworth here commenced putting another question immediately.]

Mr. Harmer—I beg, Sir, you will allow time for that last answer to be taken down.
The Coroner—Mr. Harmer, you must not be putting in these interruptions,
Mr. Harmer—I only wish, Sir, that there should be time allow¬ed for the last answer to be taken down.
The Coroner—I shall take down nothing that is irrelevant.
Mr. Harmer—What, Sir, do you call it irrelevant when the witness says he saw a great many persons cut?
The Coroner—I say that answer is irrelevant.

The cross-examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. ASHWORTH.

Q. Did you see any one person near your house actually cut with the sharp side of a sword? Did you see any wound actually inflicted, Sir?
A. I saw a great many of the people who were actually cut, and---

[Here the Witness was going on to state something further, when he was interrupted by]

Mr. Ashworth—I ask you, Sir, did you see them actually cut?
Mr. Harmer—Pray hear him, Sir; he was going to give you an answer, if you did not interrupt him.
The Witness—As to any cut that drew blood, I cannot pretend to say that I saw it inflicted; but I know this, that if it had not been for the gentleman I have told you of coming up and stopping them, many would have been dead there.
The Coroner—That is your imagination, you know.

The cross-examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. ASHWORTH.
Q. You shall answer my questions, Sir, and not interlard them with your own observations. Do you mean to state, that you know where these persons had been cut, whom you say you saw had been cut?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever see any one Cavalry-man use the sharp side of his sword, and cut any one person?
A. No; I don't know whether it was the sharp side they used, or what it was; but I know that the people were cut, for I saw them bleeding.
Q. Did you see any one Cavalry-man use the sharp side of his sword?
A. I tell you, I don't know whether they struck with the sharp side or the back side of their swords; but I could see plain enough that the people had been cut.
Q. Did you see any one Cavalry-man strike any person with the sharp side of his sword? and do not think you will evade my question in that sort of way.
A. I cannot say that; but I know they kept hacking away as hard as ever they could; whether it was the sharp side or the fiat side I don't pretend to know.
Q. Did you see any wound given to any person or persons near the hustings?
A. No; I cannot say that I did; I saw no blood actually drawn myself, but I saw the people bleeding.
The Coroner (to the Witness)—Were there ho people stand¬ing near your cellar before the Cavalry came away from the hustings?
A. Yes, there were.
The Coroner—It was full there, was it?
A. There were people there before; and when the Cavalry came up the cellar was full.

[Mr. Harmer was here about to address the Coroner.]

The Coroner—I am going to adjourn. (To the Jury)—-We must now adjourn, Gentlemen of the Jury, to nine o'clock to¬morrow morning.

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