Edward Owen Eyewitness Account

• Occupation: Attorney

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Name: Edward Owen

Occupation: Not stated.

Home: Not stated.

Date: 8 October 1819

Source: Lees Inquest 440-57, 566

Summary: Called by Ashworth to testify in detail to the military style of the marches into Manchester, his evidence is prompted at a number of points and turns out to favour the protestors on some points. These are teased out by Harmer, who also brings him back briefly to comment on the Boroughreeve and Constables’ warning notice once it has been found.

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Mr. EDWARD OWEN called in by Mr. ASHWORTH, and sworn by the CORONER.
Mr. ASHWORTH—To save time, Sir, perhaps it would not be objected to, if I were to examine those witnesses that are called by me first, and that then the learned gentleman on the other side should cross-examine them, leaving it afterwards for you to ask such questions as you think the justice of the case requires should be asked. According to the present course, you first examine the witnesses, and then Mr. Harmer or I, by whomsoever the wit¬ness may be called, have to retrace the same ground. It would, no doubt, be a great saving of time, if the course I propose were adopted; and I do not apprehend it will meet with the slightest objection on the other side.
Mr. HARMER—Certainly, I can have no objection to that course, Sir, or any other course which will save time, as long as the pur¬poses of justice are fully answered. But I will take the liberty of suggesting, that it turns out the last witness was a special constable, and I understood the evidence of such witnesses was not to be re¬ceived.
Mr. ASHWORTH—I recollect, perfectly well, that on the first day I attended your Court, at Oldham, I was challenged by the learned gentleman to bring forward the special constables to give evidence upon this occasion. It is, no doubt, a horrible case, as the learned gentleman said, that this Inquest should be protracted so long; but, as I have been challenged by the learned gentleman to establish an exculpation, I certainly feel myself warranted in calling the special constables, whom I have been challenged to pro¬duce, to give their evidence upon this occasion.
Mr. HARMER—Upon reflection, I certainly think I was wrong in challenging the learned Counsel to produce the evidence of the special constables. Perhaps the appearance of the case, and the complete absence of all justification for the outrage that was com¬mitted on the 16th of August, elicited from me that challenge; but the necessity of the learned Counsel is pretty well evinced, when he flies to the testimony of the special constables, without stating that Mr. Mutrie was one of that body. If, however, the Coroner is of opinion that the testimony of the special constables is admissible, I bow to his decision.
The CORONER—I have decided that the evidence of the special constables is admissible. I would rather, however, receive other testimony.

[A Reporter, taking notes at the end of the table, here attracted the Coroner's notice.]

The CORONER (to the Reporter)—Who are you taking notes for?
The REPORTER—I am taking notes for the Statesman.
The CORONER—I thought I told you that you were not to take notes.
The REPORTER—I never understood, Sir, that your injunction applied to me.
The CORONER—Have you sent up your notes to London?
The REPORTER—I have.
The CORONER—Have they been published?
The REPORTER—I hope so; I sent them for that purpose. I can't answer whether they have been published or not.
The CORONER—Then I shall not suffer you to take another note.
The REPORTER—Very well, Sir; I can't help that. But will you allow me to remain in Court?
The CORONER—Yes, provided you take no more notes.
The REPORTER—Very well, Sir.
Mr. EDWARD OWEN, examined by Mr. ASHWORTH.
Q. What are you, Sir?
A. I am an attorney.
Q. Are you one of the Manchester Yeomanry?
A. No, I am not.

p.442
Q. Were you a special constable on the 16th of August?
A. No, I was not.
Q. I believe you were at the meeting on the 16th of August?
A. I was.
Q. Where were you on the 16th of August when you first observed any body of people and at what time was it?
A. I believe I was twice at the place where the meeting was held, before I saw any body of people come in procession.
Q. You were twice on the ground then before the meeting assembled?
A. Yes, I was twice on the ground before the meeting assembled.
Q. About what time?
A. About ten or eleven o'clock.
Q. Did you observe how the ground was at that time as to whether there was any stones or sticks upon it?
A. I did not observe as to stones.
Q. But I mean the first time you went, did you observe whether there were sticks or stones on it at that time?
A. I did not.
The Coroner—(to the Witness)—Do you mean that you did
not take notice or do you mean that you saw the reverse, neither sticks nor stones upon the ground?
A. I did not take notice.

The Examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. ASHWORTH

Q. Where did you go to from the ground?
A. The second time of leaving the ground, I went up Mosley-street.
Q. What time was that?
A. I should suppose about eleven o'clock. I went up Mosley-street, towards Piccadilly.
Q. What did you see there?
A. When I got to York-street, I observed many people running towards Piccadilly; and I hastened a the crowd; and at the end of Mosley-street, I met a large procession coming, which I believe, from the flags, came from Stockport and Ashton. I met the first of them at the end of Mosley-street. I saw ant body afterwards, which I believe came from Oldham.
Q. Was the first body you saw like people going to market, or going to fairs, or were they like people going about their ordinary business?
A. They were certainly not like people going about their ordinary business, for a great many of them appeared to be particular in the pace in which they walked.
Q. How do you mean particular, as to the pace in which they walked?
A. I observed a great many of them repeated the word “left” “left”—as they put the left foot to the ground.

443
Q. Did you observe any body there giving the word of command to them?
A. I don't know that I did, with them. There was a very great difference in the manner of walking in the individuals. Some walked with much more regularity than others.
Q. Did it strike you that they moved like a body that had never made any preparation for that sort of walking or not?
A. Some appeared to have made preparation, and some did not.
Q. Did some of them appear to be trained?
A. Some appeared to have been trained to walk in that way It was more like a march than any thing else.
Q. What number of persons did you observe pass? Did you stop to see these persons pass for any length of time?
A. I saw the whole of them pass.
Q. What number did they appear to be?
A. I can't form an estimate of that. I should suppose they were twenty minutes in passing. If you will allow me I will go on to observe, that there were many women and children amongst them, and that the women and children walked very stragglingly and with nothing like a march. '
Q. I should have asked you that, Sir, in order. But what do you mean by children?
A. I mean boys about twelve or fourteen years of age, and there were some few girls of about the same age.
Q. What proportion was there of women and children in the body?
A. I have never considered that matter. The proportion but a small one.
Q. Was it in your estimation a fiftieth or a hundredth part?
A. Probably there might be a tenth part, but I speak very doubtfully as to that.
Q. Were there any flags in that body?
A. There were several.
Q. Were there any caps of liberty?
A. Yes; but I forget whether two or three.
Q. Was there any band of music?
A. No; I don't recollect seeing any with that procession.
Q. Did you see any inscriptions on the flags?
A. I certainly noticed them, but I do not know what they were. I did not observe any thing particularly violent in the inscriptions of this procession.
Q. Did you see any sticks among these people?
A. I saw a great many sticks.
Q. That they were walking with, or how?
A. Some were walking with them, and some were carrying them in their hands.
Q. Carrying them in their hands, up?
A. Sometimes up, and occasionally moving them about.
Q. Now did you yourself, as this body passed by, or did body near you make use of any expression, indicating apprehension or alarm?

p.444
A. I thought myself, that it looked very formidable; but I did not communicate my sentiments to any body.
Q. But you heard, as to this body, no indication of apprehension or alarm from those round you?
A. No. I heard this body huzza at a coach which they passed opposite the White Bear, on the dickey of which stood Moorhouse.
Q. When you saw him standing on the coach, do you mean on the foot-board?
A. Yes; the hind part of the coach.
Q. Did he huzza?
A. The crowd huzza'd and shouted. I don't know that he did.
Q. Was that all you observed respecting this body?
A. Yes. I am not aware of any thing else.
Q. Where, then, did you go?
A. I observed a number of people running towards High-street, and I went with the crowd until I got to Shudehill, and there I met a crowd coming from Royton and Oldham, I believe, and that neighbourhood. I don't know whether they came from Oldham, but that they came from Royton am positive. I pushed rapidly past them, until I reached the front of them, and they extended to Old Mill-gate.
Q. That is, the advance of them?
A. Yes. When reached the middle of Old Mill-gate, a shout came of "halt,'' from behind, and instantly all that were in my sight stopped.
Q. Was that shout from one person?
A. It was communicated from one to another, more like a running fire than any thing else. I stopped also, and observed several men in front with sticks in their hands, who appeared to be a kind of directors. They were active in making them halt, and in repeating the word, and in stopping in front of them, with their sticks.
Q. Were the shops open at this time?
A. I was going on to observe, that the instant they began to halt, the people began to put their shutters up to the shops; and these men in front appeared very anxious that they should not put their shutters up, saying, "We are not come to harm you. We will do you no harm.” They appeared very anxious that the shopkeepers should not be alarmed, but the shopkeepers shut up their shops, notwithstanding what they said.
Q. How long did they halt?
A. About five minutes.
Q. Did they then move forward?
A. Yes; there came a about from behind, "Go on," and they went on.
Q. Did you observe how many flags there were with that body?
A. I can't charge my memory. There might be half a dozen; or probably not so many. Three or four, perhaps.
Q. How many caps of liberty were there?
A. I can't charge my memory. There were more than one, I believe, or two.
Q. Was this body, in point of regularity of step, equal to the other?

p.445
A. They were much more regular in point of step. I stopped in front of the Exchange, and saw them all go past.
Q. Did it strike you that that regularity was the effect of accident, or design?
A. I felt perfectly convinced then, and I still feel the same conviction, that many of those men had been practising that way of walking before, from the regularity in which they walked
Q. Have you seen soldiers walk in slow or common time?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it like that?
A. It was like common time
Q. Do you mean the common time of soldiers walking?
A. Yes.
Q. You saw the whole body pass?
A. Yes.
Q. How many do you think there were?
A. I think they were about twenty-five minutes in passing, to the best of my recollection.
Q. Were there thousands?
A. There might have been thousands.
Q. Did you see any bugle with that body?
A. Yes; I saw a bugleman about the centre of that body.
Q. Was that bugle sounded at all?
A. Yes; it was sounded the greater part of the way coming through the market place. I don't recollect the tune, but it was one by which they might easily march.
Q. Did you yourself, on that occasion, feel any alarm or apprehension?
A. (After a considerable pause)—My idea, Sir, was this—
Q. I say, did you feel any alarm?
Mr. Harmer—Pray let the witness answer.
A. My idea was this. Seeing such a body, I thought there might be partial acts of riot and violence, and I thought it might be very difficult for the civil power to check them; but I considered that the leaders, for their own responsibility, would do as much as they could to prevent all tumult. I have attended many meetings at Manchester, but I never attended any at which I felt so much alarm as at that on the 16th of August .
Q. Did any body but you, express any apprehension?
A. The shop-people were closing their shutters—the persons who had stalls were removing their goods, and upon their faces there certainly did not appear that species of expression which exists on common occasions; there were, manifestly, symptoms of alarm. Every thing was very still, and that made it more awful.
Q. Were there any words or expressions made use of by the persons standing by, indicative of apprehension or alarm?
A. I recollect that, when a flag came, with the words on it "Equal Representation Or Death," the people said—[Here the witness pronounced, twice, that species of ejaculatory interjection, which is usually uttered by every one, as expressing sorrowful surprise, or expectation]—Thethz! Thethz! How far will this go.”

p.446
Q. Did you see any other inscriptions?
A. I saw several; but I don't recollect any, except “The Royton Female Union,” biut I can’t charge my memory with what was upon the other flags.
Q. Did you see anything delineated on any of the flags?
A. I don’t recollect that I saw anything delineated n any of them; except, I believe, on one flag there was a delineation of two hands clasped together.
Q. Did you see the representation of any thing at the top of any flag?
A. No; not amongst that body.
Q. Did you then go to the ground?
A. Yes. But I should state to you, that there were women and children in this procession; but the proportion of them was not so great as in the procession that came from Stockport.
Q. Did you then go to the ground again?
A. Almost immediately.
Q. Where did you station yourself on the ground?
A. In the first instance I was not very far from the lower end of the Quakers' Meeting-house, the Deansgate end, and the West-end, but near to St. Peter-street.
Q. Did you, in that situation, see the different bodies that came on the ground?
A. No, all the bodies had then come. There were other bodies then on the ground beside those that I had seen, but the flags were different.
Q. Did you see any number of Manchester people on the ground?
A. I judge by their countenances and appearance that the greater proportion of people were strangers. The towns-people stood on the outside of the meeting as much as they could, as it seemed to me.
Q. That is, furthest from the hustings?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the Manchester people come in bodies?
A. I did not observe any.
Q. You did not observe any of the towns-people come in bodies,
you say?
A. Not any.
Q. Was Mr. Hunt on the ground when you got there?
A. No; and I waited I suppose an hour after the bodies were there with an interval or about ten minutes, when I went to Deansgate, and observed the greater part of the shops were shut.
Q. Had you observed before this, in different parts of the town, any bills or placards stuck up desiring the people not to attend the meeting? •
A. Yes; and the first time I saw a placard stuck up—
Mr. Harmer—That placard can be produced, and as no doubt it is in existence, it will afford much better evidence in itself, than the parole testimony of its contents.

p. 447
Mr. Ashworth—Very well, but you will allow me to give evidence of the placards, as I shall produce them.
Mr. Harmer—Very well, Sir.

The examination of the WITNESS resumed

Q. You saw some placards stuck up?
A. Yes; this in particular, and I saw one near the Marlborough Arms.
Q. Was this obvious to the people coming into the town?
A. Yes. Another was near the Spinning Wheel, in Deansgate.
Q. What was the purport of the placards?
A. I may give the words inaccurately, but to the best of my recollection, it was “The Boroughreeve and Constables request all peaceable persons to stay from the meeting this day, and to keep their servants and children within doors." That is, as near as possible, the substance of the placard. '
Q. Then did you go back from Deansgate?
A. Yes, I returned to the ground, and took up the same place where I had been before.
Q. What number of people were on the ground at that time?
A. The idea I formed was, that at that time, there were about seventy thousand people on the ground.
Q. How many flags did you see, when you returned to the ground again?
A. About twelve or fourteen, believe.
Q. Where?
A. In the middle of the ground about the stage.
Q. Did you observe where the black flag was?
A. That was about the stage also.
Q. Was there any green flag any where?
A. I saw a green one, but l don't recollect the description of it.
Q. Was that about the stage? ,
A. That was about the stage, but I think it was subsequently removed either after Mr. Hunt had come, or was coming.
Q. I forgot to ask you whether the Royton people had any sticks?
A. Yes, they certainly had many sticks.
Q. Were they walking with them?
A. Some were walking with them, and some were holding them in their hands.
Q. What description of sticks were they?
A. They were mostly stout sticks that would do for walking; but they were very stout ones.
Q. Did you see Mr. Hunt come on the ground?
A. I did, with a great body of people, and with music.
Q. Where there any flags with him?
A. I don't recollect whether there were any flags, but were two boards with the words "Order, Order," upon them.

p.448
Q. Did you see any caps of liberty in his party?
A. I don't recollect seeing any; but I beg your pardon, l saw his own Cap of Liberty, which he preceded.
Q. What kind of demonstrations were there, when he came on
the ground?
A. There were clapping of hands, and huzzas.
Q. Did you see him on the stage?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you hear his voice?
A. I could hear him say "gentlemen,"and that was all.
Q. Did you see the Manchester Yeomanry?
A. No.
Q. You saw “EQUAL REPRESENTATION OR DEATH” on a flag. Did you see any other inscriptions on any other flags?
A. I believe on one, there was “NO BOROUGHMONGERING,” and “UNITE AND BE FREE.” I am not sure that that was on the same flag, because I cannot charge my memory, but “LET US DIE LIKE MEN, AND NOT BE SOLD LIKE SLAVES,” and “NO CORN BILLS,” were on other flags.
Q. Did you see the representation of any thing above the flags?
A. I saw on the pole of one of the flags a representation of what I presumed to be a pike, of a red colour, and if I am allowed, I will describe what was said.
Q. Yes.
A. I thought this was very odd; and I asked several people what they thought that was, and they generally agrees— "a pike!” — " a pike!"
Mr. Harmer—That is not evidence.
Mr. Ashworth—I submit that it is. Every thing that is done upon the ground indicating what takes place among the multitude, is evidence; and I trust when we come to a higher tribunal, that it will be decided so. I would not tender it if it was not evidence.

The examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. ASHWORTH.

Q. Were your apprehensions increased by this appearance?
A. Yes, my apprehensions were increased certainly; but I must say. That upon communicating my apprehensions to some people about me, they certainly said, “they would be quiet enough if they only let them alone.”
Q. Did you gather what kind of sensation was created by the appearance of the black flag?
A. Some persons appeared about me to be alarmed, and upon my mentioning it, they appeared to be very much alarmed; and I heard this observation made more than once, "that black flag scared me.”
Q. You say you did not see the Yeomanry Cavalry come upon the ground. Did you see them when they were on the ground?
A. No. I had altered my position to get near the hustings, near Windmill-street. I can point out my position exactly.

p.449
(Here the Witness referred to the plan.)
I was near Windmill-street, to the west of the hustings. I had not been there very long before I heard a very great shouting begin. I did not know the cause of the shouting, not being able to see over the people’s heads, being short; but the people about me said, “There is Major Cartwright coming,” twice. I ran from the spot where I was, into St. Peter-street, towards where the cause of the shouting was, and when I had got about half way up St. Peter-street, I saw a part of the Yeomanry Cavalry in front of the Cottage, and by Mr. Buxton's house. I suppose there might be fifty or sixty of them.
Q. Did you see them in the act of drawing up, or were they formed?
A. They were formed. I did not see them on the ground before, nor did I know that they were on the ground. The people about me were, many of them, hissing, hooting, and groaning at them.
Q. Did these appear to be the people who were in the immediate vicinity of the Yeomanry, that did that, or was it universal among the crowd?
A. I did not notice whether it was universal among the crowd, but it was near the Yeomanry.
Q. Must they have heard it?
A. I should think so.
Q. That is your opinion?
A. That is my opinion.
Q. From the situation in which they were?
A. From the situation in which they were.
Q. Did you see them the whole time they were drawn up, before they moved towards the hustings?
A. I never had my eyes from them after that, until after they surrounded the hustings, for certainly I was surprised to see them.
Q. Then you had not heard that any thing of the kind was to take place?
A. No.
Q. Did the hissing, hooting, and groaning continue, from the time you saw them formed, until the time you saw them move towards the bustings?
A. Yes, it certainly did.
Q. Did you observe any other demonstration that was evinced by the crowd, when the Yeomanry formed?
A. My eyes were kept upon the Yeomanry, and therefore I could not observe the motions of the people. I did not observe any other motions.
Q. You say, that you observed them until they got to the hustings?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you observe any thing done, as they were going to the hustings?

p.450

A. (After a pause). No. You mean, I presume, opposition on the part of the people?
Q. Yes.
A. No, except, there appeared to be an endeavour to resist them, but whether it was resistance, or only arose from the density of the crowd, I cannot tell.
Q. Did you observe any pause of the Yeomanry in advancing to the hustings?
A. Yes. I observed that some paused, as if they could not get into the crowd, but when they got through the crowd, they pushed on to join the others at the hustings.
Q. Did you observe any thing else, that could cause the pause, but the thickness of the crowd?
A. No.
Q. How were their swords held, as they were advancing to the hustings?
A. I can't say. I have endeavoured to think how it was in going up, but I cannot charge my memory with it. I have a perfect recollection of how thw swords were held at the hustings. They were not using them at all.
Q. That is the impression on your mind?
A. Yes. They were not cutting, or striking any body with them to the best of my recollection, until they got up to the hustings. That is the conviction of my mind. But the fact has been stated so very differently by other persons, that I very much doubt whether I am correct. That, however, certainly was the impression on my mind at the time.
Q. Then, about the hustings, what did you see them do?
A. When the hustings had been nearly surrounded, by the greater part of the Yeomanry, I then observed several of the Yeomanry striking. It did not appear to me that it was some of those surrounding the hustings, but I thought it was some of those separated from them.
Q. Did it appear to you, that the Yeomanry were striking with the sharp edge of their swords, or with the side of their swords?
A. I cannot say.
Q. Did it appear as if they wished to join their comrades in front?
A. Yes.
[Here some noise was created in the passage outside the door of the Court, and Mr. Barrow wrote a note to the Police Office for assistance to keep silence, by the desire of the Coroner.]

The examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. ASHWORTH.

Q. Did you see whether it was the flat sides of their swords the Yeomanry used?
A. No.
Q. What do you conceive created the stoppage?

p.451

A. I thought at the time, that the crowd was preventing them from joining their comrades.
Q. Did you see any body cut?
A. No, I did not; but the blows I saw given, if they had been with the sharp sides of their swords, must certainly have cut persons.
Q. Did you, at any time, see any stones or brick-bats thrown?
A. I stood there as long as I could, and –
Q. How far were you standing from the hustings?
A. I was standing by St. Peter-street, almost opposite to the hustings, and the pressure of the crowd before me, was towards the Quakers' meeting-house. I got knocked down there by the crowd over the loose timber, and I perceived that a great many stones and brick-bats were then flying from the Quaker’s meeting
house yard. They were in the act of being thrown from the Quakers' meeting-house yard over my head.
Q. At whom do you suppose they were thrown?
A. They were thrown in a direction towards the hustings.
[Here a person named Thomas Smithies was brought before the Coroner, in custody of the Constables, for making a noise before the door, and was ordered to be detained in custody until the breaking up of the Court.]

The examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. ASHWORTH

Q. Well, Sir, will you proceed in your evidence?
A. I was very much alarmed at the flying of the stones, and I expected that the military would fire, and as I was under the wall, I should have suffered as much as any body.
Q. What sort or stones were they?
A. Some were large stones, some were small stones, and some I could distinguish to be pieces of bricks.
Q. Did you hear any pistol or musket fired?
A. No, not until long after that. I heard some fired a close of the meeting, just before Mr. Hunt was taken down to the New Bailey.
Q. Where did they appear to be fired from?
A. One appeared to be fired in Lad-Lane.
Q. Where is that?
A. That is parallel to St. Peter-street.
Q. Down towards Deansgate?
A. Yes, but I don’t know by whom that was fired. The other was fired somewhere about the same direction.
Q. Did you see any other military assembled but the Manchester Yeomanry at that time?
A. I did not. I saw no others, because as soon as I could, I forced my way out of the crowd, and went towards Peter-street, and I stopped at the Church; and then I saw the Cheshire Yeomanry coming up Mosley-street.

p.452
Q. That was the first time you had seen them coming on the ground?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that after the stones were thrown from the Quakers' meeting house yard?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you, during any time on that day, see the Cheshire Yeomanry on the ground?
A. Yes; because I returned afterwards to the ground.
Q. And then you saw them?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they appear to be less violent than the Manchester Yeomanry?
A. At the time I saw them, all the bustle, if I may so call it, was over.
I saw them going to the ground.
Q. At that time, did you see the 15th Hussars on the ground?
A. Yes; I saw them driving some of the people off the flags.
Q. Where?
A. I cannot compare them at all, as there were very few people on the street at that time.
Q. Then you imagined that the Cheshire Yeomanry and the 15th Hussars came on the ground while you were away?
A. Yes.
Q. How long were you away?
A. About ten or fifteen minutes.
Q. Where were you during that time?
A. I went down Mosley-street, and Bridgewater-street, and came back again afterwards.
Q. Now in consequence of all these bodies coming to this meeting, did the business of the town appear to you to be suspended?
A. It certainly did.
Q. Was it from your observation actually suspended?
A. Yes, it was.

The WITNESS cross-examined by Mr.HARMER.

Q. From the very candid and ingenuous manner in which you have given your testimony, I shall trouble you with very few questions. I think you say, that in this first body, there were several women and children, and as you estimate them, there were about one to ten?
A. Yes; but I never estimated them before Mr. Ashworth asked me the question.
Q. And with respect to all the people upon the field, you do not think the proportion of women and children were so large?
A. No.

p.453
Q. They were marching, some keeping step, and some not?
A. Yes.
Q. And others were dictating to them?
A. Yes.
Q. They were not very much drilled, but I suppose they were what we should call "an awkward squad?"
A. Yes.
Q. Were you ever in London l
A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever seen the men of the different other companies, walk in their processions?
A. No.
Q. These people passed the word of command “halt” from one party to another?
A. Yes.
Q. And those in front, stopped them with their sticks?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever see the word of command given so before? Is it not
usually given only by one person?
A. I certainly never heard it given so before, but the line was very long.
Q. I suppose you, as a professional man, would know that there was no High Treason in learning to march?
Mr. ASHWORTH—I never asked the Witness about the law of High Treason. We shall have that from a superior court.

Cross-examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. HARMER.

Q. You thought they would all return home quietly, if they were left alone?
A. Yes.
Q. You thought that some might commit individual acts of disorder?
A. Yes.
Q. But you thought that the leaders would take care and prevent them?
A. As much as they could.
Q. You did not at all anticipate that they would be disturbed?
A. I was doubtful upon that point; but I concluded so.
Q. Now with respect to this placard, it cautioned people to stay at home, who were peaceably disposed, but it did not indicate that the meeting would be dispersed or disturbed?
A. It did not.
Q. Did it state, that the meeting was unlawful or illegal?
A. I believe not.
Q. Did it prevent you from going l
A. No, it did not.
Q. And of course you would not have gone to it, if you thought that the Military would have interrupted them?
A. I should have gone to the outskirts, in all probability.

p.454

Q. Now as to this pike; was it not that part of the flag above the flag itself?
A. Yes.
Q. Don't you know that most flag-staves terminate in a point?
A. I have seen it in many, but this was peculiar; I can perhaps sketch a representation of it. There was a pike sticking up in the middle, and then were curves like a halberd. There was a pike at the top, but it was curved.
Mr. Ashworth—(to the Witness)—Was it a carved kind of thing that would cut.
A. Yes.

Cross-examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. HARMER.

Q. But it was wood, I presume?
A. I don't know what it was formed of.
Q. But at least it was so equivocal, that you asked others what it was?
A. It was intended to resemble a pike. But whether it was, or not, I cannot say.—
[Here the Witness sketched a likeness of what he alluded to, which, in appearance, answered the description above given.]
Q. You gathered it, as the sense of the persons around you, that the people would be quiet enough, if they were left alone?
A. They made that observation.
Q. I understand that you are not very tall; I presume, therefore, that a person looking from a window, would have a better opportunity of observing all that took place, even than yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you yourself did not see any body struck, in the way of the Yeomanry up to the hustings?
A. No. Allow me to explain; I did not see them strike until the greater part of them got to the hustings.
Q. But if any person had stated, that he was looking from a window, and saw the foremost of the Yeomanry strike a person down, because he was stupid, you would not contradict him?
A. No.
Mr. Ashworth—Let it be clearly understood, that no man was struck down.

Cross-examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. HARMER.

Q. Well, then, struck. If any person stated, that that he saw the foremost of the Yeomanry strike a person because he was stupid, you would not contradict him?
A. No; but I was going to observe this; I would not contradict him, but if a person asserted it, that day, I should have told him, I would not have believed it.
Mr. Harmer—It was a witness produced by these gentlemen.
Mr. Barrow—No such thing, it is not so; no witness produced by us has stated so.

p.455
Mr. Harmer—I beg your pardon; Mr. Hall stated it over and over again.
Mr. Ashworth—Yes, it is so.
Mr. Barrow—Yes. Yes, I beg pardon, it was so.

Cross-examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. HARMER.

Q. You would of course speak to the best of your knowledge?
A. Yes.
Q. When the YEOMANRY were surrounding the hustings, did they strike?
A. Yes.
Q. And in such a way, as that they would cut if they struck with the edge?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that crowd from the outskirts?
A. Yes.
Q. And the main body did not appear to move?
A. No.
Q. There might have been some removal to have made way for the Cavalry round the hustings?
A. No, I don't think it was necessary that any body should be removed off the ground for that purpose, but they might be more compacted together for the moment, in the same manner, as many more persons might come into this room without driving us out.
Q. Were not the people within several yards of trhe hustings, very closely pressed together?
A. Yes.
Q. How far were you from the hustings?
A. I was about the middle of St. Peter-street, about thirty yards from the hustings, and almost opposite to them.
Q. Now in the spot where you perceived the interruption to the Yeomanry, that you have described, in going up to the hustings, were not the people very closely pressed together?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. I think I understood you to say, that there was something of a resistance, but whether it was from the act of the people or the extreme denseness of the crowd, you could not tell?
A. No.
Q. I will ask you, whether the people were not very likely to be extremely dense in that part?
A. They certainly were.
Q. The first stone that was thrown from the Quakers’ chapel yard?
A. Yes.

p.456

Q. And then the people had been dispersed to a considerable extent?
A. No; it was almost immediately after the hustings were surrounded.
Q. Now was it probable that any of the Yeomanry would be struck at that distance, if that was the object of the stones being flung?
A. I was aware of that question; and I am convinced that expert flingers might have reached that part.
Q. But at that time there were a great many people among the Yeomanry?
A. Yes; but the Yeomanry would be easily marked, being on horses.
Q. You did not see any of them struck off their horses?
A. No. I was too much engaged in taking care of my own safety.

The WITNESS re-examined by Mr. ASHWORTH.

Q. Now you have been asked, whether a person stationary at a window could see as much as you saw?
Mr. Harmer—At a window two doors from the Windmill!

The examination of the WITNESS resumed by Mr. ASHWORTH.

Q. Well then. Could a person stationary at a window near the Windmill public-house, have seen as much as you could moving up and down?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. Quite as much?
A. Yes, certainly. They could not so well, to be sure, see the stones, that were thrown from the Quakers’ meeting-house yard; because I was close to it, and was very much alarmed.
Q. You thought there might be some firing?
A. Yes; and I thought I might be in as much danger as any body else.

The WITNESS re-examined by the CORONER.

Q. How soon do you suppose the first stone was thrown from the Quakers’ meeting-house yard. Do you suppose it was so soon as the Yeomanry appeared at the hustings?
A. Yes.
Q. Were any of the Yeomanry or other soldiers near you at that time?
time?
A. No; none were nearer to me than those at the hustings.
Q. When the Cavalry were coming into the crowd, did any one precede them into the crowd?
A. I believe the trumpeter preceded.

p.457
Q. At what distance was he before them?
A. I don’t know really, whether I observed him, at the time, before them, or whether it is the result of general report since.
Q. Did the Cavalry, as soon as they came into the crowd, begin to cut and slash to the right and left as hard as ever they could?
A. They did not.
Q. Are you certain of that?
A. I am certain of that.
[It is but proper to remark, that such was the intense heat of the room in which the Court was held this day, that Mr. Nadin refused to come into it, until Mr. Ashworth sent a constable for him.]*

*“The room in which the Court assembled this morning, was a narrow room about thirty feet in length, and between eight and nine feet in height, a long table being placed through the centre, at the head of which sat the Coroner, while either side was occupied by Mr. Ashworth, and the other gentlemen usually accompanying him. Mr. Harmer, Mr. Denison, and the other gentlemen connected with the proceedings, sat towards the further end of the table. The Jury sat round the upper end of the room, and complained much of the restricted accommodation afforded to them.”

(p.566)

Mr. EDWARD OWEN re-called, and re-examined by Mr. BARROW.

Q. Is that the sort of placard, that you saw posted up against the walls, on the 16th of August?
A. Yes.
Mr. HARMER.—Will you be good enough to read it, that we may have the contents of it taken down?
Mr. OWEN now read the contents of the placard as follows :—

August 15, 1819
“The BOROUGHREEVES and CONSTABLES of MANCHESTER and SALFORD most earnestly recommend the peaceable and well-disposed INHABITANTS of this Town, as much as possible to remain within their own Houses dining the whole of this day, August the 16th instant, and to keep their Children and Servants within doors.

"EDWARD CLAYTON, Boroughreeve.
"JOHN MOORE
"JONATHAN ANDREWS, CONSTABLES.
“JOHN GREENWOOD, Boroughreeve of Salford.
"JAMES COOKE,
“JOSIAH COLLINS, Constables.
"Printed by C Williams."

Mr. HARMER.—I see that there is no admonition contained in that, stating that the meeting would be unlawful, or that it was to be dispersed; therefore, it appears that you had a very good recollection of it, Sir.

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